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College Kids

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4 pointsvorbby19 comments

I was in an Information Systems (BBA with an IT focus) degree program at a four year university in the United States' "Deep South". I got out of the college scene after 3 years and enlisted because I figured I could be working in IT faster (and leave the Armed Forces with relevant experience under my belt) if I left. (This was right before the economy tanked, so in retrospect it was an initiative bathed in some sort of fatefully unintentional clairvoyance.) I also figured that in going this route, I could get my foot in the door with various agencies that I would one day like to be working for. What you said about the government work really resonated with me, very true and I see it now. But I thought in college "these people don't really USE, nor are they interested in, the technology they're learning about" (this is an exception of course, some were). Now I'm saying, at my current position, "these people don't use at home, nor are they interested in, the technology they use at work" (this is an exception of course, some do). The difference in people between the two places: no difference. The difference in environment: interesting work experiences and a handful of IT industry certifications that were provided for me at no cost.

Hmm, that's interesting. I guess the environment issue isn't black and white.

I guess what bothers me about all the people aiming for their government jobs is the fact that they're content doing menial maintenance of legacy systems in COBOL or whatever the hell they're written in. I know there's probably some brilliant kids in the program, and it seems like they're all convinced that it's the best/only path available to them, and they're fine with that.

You have to approach this drawing a distinction between learning a skill and joining a community.

If you joined this community college program in Ottawa to learn a trick or two about programming, you approached it with the right mindset. You approached it looking for technical improvement.

It sounds like, however, you joined the program looking for rock stars. If Ottawa was a technology startup focused town, you'd know it already - there would be technology startups. Environment is so critical.

I come from another government town (Washington, DC) and there are a significant number of absolutely brilliant people here...who want nothing to do with a tech startup. They're government employees, or contractors, or even just policy wonks. That's not a slight against their intelligence; it's just that the culture in DC is not geared toward startups while Silicon Valley is.

There's not going to be an easy way or good time to rip yourself away from Ottawa - it's going to be frustrating and probably won't be an easy move. But if that's what you want to do, you'll have to find a way.

Am I just in the wrong program at the wrong school at the wrong time?

Yes. Maybe the wrong program, definitely the wrong school. (You have little choice about the time, so forget about it.)

Suggestion: Be the person you want to meet. The only person you can control is yourself, and even that ain't easy. The other students are idiots right now? Well, give them a chance to learn.

The rest is just a chaotic process; maybe you meet people that you click with, maybe you don't, maybe it comes easily, maybe it doesn't. If you get lucky, it probably won't come from a direction you expected, so stay open to all the opportunities you can find. Do what you can to improve your odds, in the meantime.

This is great advice. I'm generally fairly introverted, so this is something I could put some effort in to and hopefully get some results.

One thing I need to make more of an effort in is to meet people outside of school. I should, and will, look in to some local meetups and things of that nature to meet people.

Thanks a lot for reading and commenting!

Don't be afraid to venture outside of student groups either.

Most areas have user groups of various sorts. Don't be afraid to attend user groups for technologies you're not necessarily interested in right now.

Good geeks often have broad interests. You'll be surprised at the number of .Net developers at a user group meeting who also hack Ruby and Python, and know their way around a Unix command line.

I encountered these types of students when I was at university, as well. From what I hear, they're common at most universities. It seems like the vast majority of people going into Computer Science choose it because they want to write video games or make web sites, not because they're genuinely interested in Computer Science. Many schools have been downgrading their programs to cater to them (after all, their money is just as <insert color of legal tender here>).

Thanks for the comment and for reading; it's good to know I'm not alone.

How did you deal with it? Did you actively seek out like-minded people? If so, any tips on how I can do the same?

Thanks again.

As one of the "really awesome friends" that groovy2shoes mentioned, I have to say that he is spot on. He and I were lucky enough to be put in the same group for a software engineering project, forcing us both to forego our usual policy of avoiding other Comp Sci majors. Other people had luck with clubs (LUGs, 2600), but I always felt like an outsider when I tried to go to things like that. Keep an eye out for the people that seem to keep to themselves, you might find out that they too find the majority of your peers revolting.

Good luck!

Honestly, I was absolutely miserable for the first two years. Eventually I met a couple of really awesome friends. The only advice I can really give is not to write anyone off without first giving them a chance: some of the coolest people will be the ones you least suspect.

As a fellow CS Grad, my one little piece of advice is to just give it some time. You've got a weed-out course coming somewhere after your intro classes, and those left will be the ones that are really dedicated and have the tools to press onward.

This seems like a good insight. It's true that most of the people I'm judging (sounds negative, but I guess that's what I'm doing) are the ones who are quite outspoken. perhaps there are some gems in the rough, just hiding.

Not speaking from personal experience, but the difference between the kids who go to a community college and a school with a respected <insert field here> program is going to be massive. I'd be figuring out how to transfer to somewhere better in a hurry. Even if it takes you time to save up money or whatever.

Absolutely this. Even if it's not an expensive college, at least one in a city with a lively tech community. That way even if you're not getting much from the college you've still got like-minded people nearby, and colleges aren't usually too fussy about non-students coming to events as long as you're not obviously out of place.

Expecting university to automatically mean interesting people is the equivalent of popping off to the Bering Strait in your swim gear and saying "I don't get it! Beaches are meant to be warm!"

That's my problem (and goal) right now: money.

I figured the gap would be quite large, so my goal now is to graduate from the two year program I'm in now, so that I have at least something under my belt, and then move on to bigger and better things at a bigger and better school.

Thanks a lot for the comment and advice!

Hey, I don't know a thing about you, but I'm going to take your post on face value, which makes it _sound_ like you got half a clue, and some ambition, and a year of dev work experience.

Let's talk about money.

Algonquin's tuition is what, $1,212.20 per 13-week semester? I'm hoping that's for 15+ hours per week of classroom time (a.k.a 5 3-credit courses), counting only time with a faculty member, not TAs. Plus some bonus lab/TA time, maybe, depending. Based on a little website, let's look at a few Real Schools (a few in your city, a few in mine). UOttawa says they charge $2,710.65 for Fall 2011 (again, presumably for 15 hours of classroom time a week, plus labs). Carleton astonished me at $6k+, that's freaky high (PS you US people, I'm not talking about the U.S.). At my end of the country, SFU charges $163.80 per credit (i.e. multiply by 15 for a full load, getting $2500). UBC is marginally cheaper. None of those places is MIT or Waterloo, but at least UBC and SFU are _fine_ schools.

Last year, you were working as a junior dev with no edumacation, presumably no serious prior experience, but you know enough to ask "what distribution", so probably you're useful. Making what, gotta be more than $10k a semester pre-tax ($30k a year)? Gotta be at least that much, although I dunno what Ottawa rates are like. Can you do that job while going to school? Do you want to? Your real cost of going to school is that you lost access to that $10k-$15k for the semester. The difference between $1k tuition and $3k tuition just became kinda dinky, eh?

The point is, the difference in tuition between Algonquin and UOttawa should be ignorable. You've already forfeited $10k+ in salary, and $1k in tuition, PER SEMESTER, so $1k extra is kinda icing on the cake. Optimize correctly! Don't waste your life at the wrong school over such a small difference! (I admit Carleton's apparently $6k makes me hesitate a little).

Now, teaching quality.

Teaching quality MIGHT be great at a college, I can't say. I went to Capilano College (now University) for 2 years, and I got some really really great instructors. But if that's not what you're getting, why are you wasting money, and more importantly time? Bad GPA you need to fix?

And listen, if the program has great teaching (not that you'd know at two weeks in), then it'll be a viable foundation to build on at a bigger/better school. But if you're getting half-assed teaching, then you're wasting time, not getting something under your belt. (If they teach badly but you already know it, you're wasting time. If you don't know it now and they don't teach it, wasting time!)

And now to your original point about peers. Yeah, a community college is gonna attract a lot of marginal students. I met a few awesome and very smart people at Capilano College (smarter than me), but I gotta admit, they were a lot fewer and farther between than what I got to meet at SFU. Partly that's just the size of the pool of potential peers, partly it's that larger schools have better structures in place to help you FIND those peers (more societies, etc).

Half the point of going to school is to meet awesome peers who mutually inspire you, who you can have great experiences with, etc.

I guess what I'm saying is, if the kids are driving you batshit, you should see how fast you can get your ass into a better group of kids. Of course, the problem could just be you. ;)

I definitely agree with the sentiments of everyone else on getting into a better College/University/Whatever. Also, the way things are going, and with your talent and drive, I would really recommend you consider doing a full Engineering degree. It may be another year of your life you spend in University, but even the smallest amount of extra investment counts when you're competing with millions of other graduates with diplomas/bachelor's degrees, and as qualifications they are recognized all over the world.

Of course it sounds like you're definitely struggling financially, so you may not have much choice in institution or program. Here in New Zealand we all get interest-free government loans to cover the costs of tertiary education, so in one way I've been lucky just because of where I was born. It is very hard to suggest what you should do, because the systems in place here are so very different to in the US.

If in the end you can't do much about your situation, make the best of it. Ace every assignment, tweak them with your own extensions which add extra functionality or go beyond the criteria of the assignment. If you are not being challenged by your study program, challenge yourself. Class is a very small overall part of your education; go out to user groups or other social group meetings (after all, who you know matters just as much/more than what you know), build things that teach you something new. You will learn more from these people and by yourself than you will from any test or assignment. Never in the rest of your life will you have the time, energy or resources to push yourself as far as you can while studying.

If you show passion and intelligence, people will believe in you.

What level of class is it?

If it is an introductory class just be happy that people are there. I know plenty of programmers (including myself) who only got interested in CS because of video games. I then figured out I liked CS and didn't really like making games.

This program is as entry-level as it gets. No prerequisites, two years, assumes no prior knowledge.

It's weak, but it's the best I could afford.

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