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Comment by dmitriid | Hacker News Reader

> It's worth keeping in mind that it's users and apps that comprise the web, not the implementation details of any given browser.

Ah yes. As we all know, Chrome is very well known for how well it listens to users. Remember the alert fiasco? And many other fiascos?

Or remember "standards" like WebHID which are so bad that Mozilla engineers couldn't even understand them, but you still shipped them?

Or other "standards" which have multiple issues pointed out and still shipped by default in Chrome?

Please don't insult our intelligence by pretending that you, or Chrome team care at all about users or standards.

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Funny how you use words like "insult" yet don't see the irony in the tone you use when talking to other people :)

Good day to you too.

Well, you don't care about that, either. Because the entire behaviour of every single public person from Chrome team has been:

- deflect

- pretend Chrome-only APIs are standards

- gaslight other browser vendors

You are not different, and there's literally nothing in this world will stop you, and nothing I say or do can ever even begin to approach the behaviour of the Chrome team.

So, do hold up the mirror to your actions first.

Just from a third party perspective here: your tone in this post and all over the thread is not even remotely constructive. You have one point that you’ve made rudely in about five different places. We get it.

> all over the thread is not even remotely constructive

Constructive tone has been tried with Chrome team again, and again, and again, and again.

It's gotten so bad that in various "Request for position on standards" Safari team simply ends up saying "no" without stating reasons. Because it literally doesn't matter anymore.

All is left is directly pointing out the outright lies (see e.g. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019370) that Chrome's various talking heads will tell you.

And yes. I will keep saying this in many places. And there's a good reason for that, as someone else noted in the discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30014807 Do you by any chance go and admonish people for "not being constructive" about Safari or Firefox?

For another third party perspective, I find your tone entirely appropriate, given that web.dev is a propaganda machine for Chrome. Pushback is necessary.

Pushback can be done with being so personal and insulting, and it's easier to read that way too.

Re-read the subthread. The only place he reacts is in the "non-constructive feedback". All the constructive feedback is promptly ignored.

Chrome team couldn't give two craps about any amount of constructive feedback from other browser implementers, framework authors and web developers on most of the stuff they ram through standards bodies. Why start now?

Yeah I saw that the first time.

I'm not saying it has to be particularly constructive. But you can describe how a policy is terrible without your comment becoming a personal combative mess.

Something like:

Yeah, users comprise the web, and Chrome doesn't listen to them. See the alert fiasco, among others. [side note: probably elaborate here, I don't know what alerts you're talking about even after a search]

The Chrome team created a "standards" documents for WebHID that was so bad that Mozilla engineers couldn't even understand it, and still went ahead with shipping.

Others "standards" have had serious issues pointed out, with other browsers refusing to implement them, and Chrome keeps shipping them by default.

Users and proper standards haven't mattered at any point.

> But you can describe how a policy is terrible without your comment becoming a personal combative mess.

What's the point though? Look at this exchange between RReverser and chrismorgan: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30019370

chrismorgan: WebUSB is not finalized, there’s no short-term prospect of a second implementation, it is not on the standards track, given other implementers' positions if it ever becomes standardized it will be with breaking changes, etc.

RReverse: lol it was first proposed by Mozilla in Firefox OS, and WebUSB is good, actually

chrismorgan: "My main disagreement with you is not based on the soundness or otherwise of WebUSB functionally, but your position on it as a specification."

... and the discussion was safely deflected to discussing FirefoxOS and the merits of WebUSB itself.

This is the modus operandi of Chrome's "developer advocates": ignore, deflect, gaslight. It happens again, and again, and again with any and all public personas out of the Chrome team. No matter how constructively you engage with them. To RR's credit he doesn't stoop low to gaslighting (as in "we blame other browsers for everyting").

The only recourse is to cut through all the bullshit and call out the deflections and the lies.

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