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Comment by DamnYuppie | Hacker News Reader

Yes but a moderate amount with good friends is great for my soul.

Indeed, it is always good to know the science but we should balance that against the benefits. I like this quote from David Spiegelhalter[0]

"Given the pleasure presumably associated with moderate drinking, claiming there is no 'safe' level does not seem an argument for abstention," he said.

"There is no safe level of driving, but the government does not recommend that people avoid driving.

"Come to think of it, there is no safe level of living, but nobody would recommend abstention."

[0]: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45283401

I don't see it as a good quote and was puzzled as to its inclusion. It is simply a play on the words 'safe level' and equating it to other things. My best guess is that it's meant to appeal to the "I hear you but wish to continue drinking anyway" thought process, which is fair. This kind of equation is not.

I do see it as a good quote and wasn't puzzled. Perhaps we simply disagree?

Not necessarily. Driving for example is dangerous, a fatal crash can occur even if all parties involved are driving safely and are in complete control, and for that matter anything has a risk carried with it, but you balance out the risks and the rewards, just as you would with alcohol

I was thinking about this recently watching a conversation between Lex Fridman and Bryan Johnson and it struck me that there is a huge difference in optimizing lifestyle choices for human physical and mental performance, and optimizing lifestyle choices for human flourishing, or even say joy and wonder. I feel like there is this growing misunderstanding that the "optimal" human is one that can be the most productive at work.

I think saying its a misunderstanding is not giving people enough credit: we are constantly incentivized if not required to eschew joy and wonder in order to be productive and optimal. I don't think most people even have the chance to reflect on what they really want, they just need to make money to pay their rent.

But it seems to me that the people that are most focused on being productive and optimal in this weirdly obsessive way are pretty high income -- they are not just scraping by to pay rent. I work with a company that does manufacturing here in the US -- it is pretty clear to me that the group of folks in our company that are skilled labor, hourly employees that are pretty well compensated, have more fun and make more time to experience joy and wonder than folks (like myself) that are more highly compensated and in the white collar world. This does not hold true for the lower end unskilled labor folks who have almost unavoidable material financial concerns due to income level. Now, I acknowledge this is very small sample size, but it makes me think.

Isn't it more of an American phenomenon though - because of the country's puritan roots?

My friend and family groups have been making a consistent effort to stop romanticizing alcohol and have gatherings without it. There's no denying alcohol is a social lubricant that can be very enjoyable.

I think it's important to normalize having alcohol-free excursions, especially when younger people are around. Demonstrate that self control is valued. And I say that as someone with a drinking problem who sweats about going more than half a day without one.

What's a good alternative, though?

It's delicious and it lets you collectively guard down in a way that creates a bond of trust. It's a difficult thing to substitute.

When one of my friends went to China on business and came back with "stories" I realized that KTV visits (prostitutes) performed a similar function, but honestly a glass of wine seems a bit more wholesome.

My father, an alcoholic (25 years sober), gave the best description ... he was always worried about if there was going to be alcohol at the event and how much.

If you are turning down attending events because they are dry ... you have a problem.

Agreed. I'm not against alcohol but I find I can get 80%-90% of the benefits by following the "ritual" of it with a mocktail and simply setting aside time where I give myself permission to relax and socialize. Alcohol is fine in moderation but its not as necessary as folks think to having those enjoyable experiences.

But what do you replace Alcohol with, Soda? Thats not good for health either. May be tea is a good substitute for social ocassions.

This reminds me of something a friend once told me. This was about 10 years ago, he was a commander for the navy at the time.

In the navy, while at sea, you are expected to drink during social events. Alcohol is considered the 'social engine' of the ship.

Now I must disclaim that obviously the crew wasn't forced to drink. Those on guard, or who had any medical, religious or other objections were dismissed. And naturally they have very strict limits, as getting intoxicated on board of a operational warship would be very dangerous.

But, with moderate use, alcohol was (at least back then) viewed as an efficient method to prevent stress and mutiny among the crew. It probably is still today.

I've wondered for a long time if the studies showing health benefits from alcohol are being confounded by the health benefits of socialization, which often involves alcohol in many societies. People who drink less might (statistically) socialize less.

I usually spend time with friends over coffee which has very much been rehabilitated in the medical world over the past ten years.

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