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Comment by toyg | Hacker News Reader

The internet to me was a blessing and a curse. In economic terms, it has granted me lots of opportunities I might have not otherwise had; in social terms, it has taken a big toll, significantly isolating me from the world, which I didn't admit until very recently. I remember a smart classmate at university who, one day, just stopped attending and sold his computers, saying something like "these little colored lights have turned me into something I don't like". Some days I wish I had done the same.

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This reminds me of the saying in the psychedelic culture: “Once you’ve got the message, hang up the phone.” In March 2021 I made a similar decision regarding my use of Reddit. I’ve lost years doom-scrolling, but it’s also taught me useful things, especially regarding how to take care of my health. Now I feel like I’m getting more from books and I’ve transitioned to reading more of them. (Some of the reclaimed time also went towards caring for my first child.)

It isn’t too late to hang up the phone.

Same boat on turning off reddit years ago. I hope significantly more people do the same.

It's all right these days, if you're into mindless entertainment; they got rid of a lot of the more toxic parts (the_donald and co) and pornography is de-emphasized, likely will be removed altogether in the future. My feeds are now mainly poorly Paint-edited memes, cat photos / videos, and sometimes a bit of drama from the relationships or "am I the asshole" subreddits.

I don't actually do that much for mental stimulation anymore. HN doesn't do it for me anymore since three quarters are about technology or industries I'm far removed from, plus I never liked the SV culture of overhyping and grinding out startups to fish for early retirement. It's that culture that gave us the gig economy and that encourages the sigma male grindset bullshit where if you don't work 16 hours a day maintaining a healthy daily balance of soylent, melatonin, LSD and meditation you're not cool enough.

I'm with you on Silicon Valley being a grift, but be wary about mindless content consumption - even if it's not doomscrolling, you're essentially putting yourself in stasis and numbing yourself with a constant dopamine drip-feed, which can lead to not actually enjoying life. Basically, internet addiction is real.

Same hat, though I've mostly moved on to TikTok for my mindless entertainment.

HN is better because there are other internet olds here and more of the content is interesting, but as somebody with MS, the sigma male grindset thing gets under my skin because there's an undercurrent of 'If you do these things, you can ward off insecurity or poverty' and there are cases where that's just not true. Plus the ability to do those things often relies on external support, which for some reason just isn't mentioned when people talk about how they've worked to get where they are. (Which I'm not discounting; it's just that two people can put in the same effort and get drastically different results.)

It's a mindset for people in their 20s or people who can outsource most life activities.

> two people can put in the same effort and get drastically different results

Definitely; results come from: effort, ability, luck (or timing), choices and starting resources.

5 years later, browsing r/all is much worse in other ways. Porn has been de-emphasized, but every other post feels like an outrage post designed to evoke anger, often without any proof, and it's enough to get people completely riled up.

How is HN any better than reddit?

I'm hopeful that the HN I enjoyed 10 years ago can be brought back when the reddit refugees who destroyed their own site lose interest.

It was brought back, it is http://lobste.rs

Need someone to invite you though

I can invite you.

I’m not sure it is much better, but moderation does have an impact on the tone of the conversation. New content pops up a bit slower, so it’s a bit less exciting. There’s a culture of sourcing information.

Moderation keeps most people 'civil' in a formal sense - avoiding dang action. I still quite honestly find the tone here mean and condescending a very significant part of the time. Every one of my subreddits is refreshingly wholesome by comparison. Of course, one can individually quit any subreddit they find irritating.

However, after begging my therapist for help with my doomscrolling, I deleted the Reddit app. We'll see if I end up resorting to blocking HN somehow.

I’m afraid I’m not going to be helpful here, but here’s how I quit Reddit: I simply did it. I realized I was done. I stopped believing I was getting something from it. In 2014 I quit smoking in a similar fashion. Just realized it was bad, didn’t smoke afterwards.

HN is still a great place to understand the ideology of Silicon Valley and its industry. I’ve never left Europe and this forum seems to give me an edge about what’s happening here.

In many ways it is not. It's an endless source of procrastination and staying here too long without other influences will cause you to develop a most profound case of engineer's disease and blind you to the specific brand of groupthink here. Still, the level of discourse here is high compared to the worst of Reddit, and sometimes on topics I find highly engaging, which keeps me coming back for more (distraction). Just don't fall into the logical fallacy that any of us here are worth more than any other human being because (some of us) have more money, or that we're able to string English words together to form complete sentences.

I admit to meeting up with an old classmate in-person after spending weeks with HN as my main source of social interaction, and then regularly referencing anecdotes on old HN threads in the conversation and advocating for Linux/GNU for an OS; talking down big tech companies in favor of living frugally to contribute to open-source projects; and arguing in favor of working at startups versus big companies if given the chance.

I've since matured to avoid citing HN when referencing anecdotes (instead saying "I read once that..."), being agnostic about where one works (as long as it fits your personal career goals), and trying to also develop my worldview through well-regarded classic books.

The volume is limited and the density is higher. Once you're on top of everything you found interesting you just turn away and do something else.

I view it like a single subreddit with a community of pretty decent folks.

Reddit is a large wasteland, and comment interactions very often turn sour.

I unsubbed from all default subs except “world news” (which I don’t comment in) and basically only hang out on my niche hobby/professional subs now. If you curate it and cut out the really toxic, highly-attractive subs that really pull you in, it’s a way better experience. Took me almost 10 years recognize the issue but I’m glad I did.

Yes! I completely agree. I also notice more and more that I prefer a book more to the same old discussions online or the same old TV series and YouTube videos.

Not sure if he is an originator, but I heard this phrase from Alan Watts recording [0]

I recommend his lectures to all, especially if you don't want to take psychedelics. He mainly speaks about buddhism, altough he was connected to counter culture movements in the 60s and with LSD

[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-A3C8FEscw

This is me with a carefully curated set of RSS feeds and podcasts. It's not all monocles and self-described thinkers, but it does trend toward more contemplation and less scrollbait. I found I got more out of people who read the books and thought about them than from reading the books myself.

I wonder if there is a way to share your feed? Is there a platform for well-curated feeds, both on different topics, but even more so on different "mindsets"?

I feel like it would be very interesting, and I would probably even be ready to pay for someone to carefully pick interesting content, as I often feel like scrolling for hours only to find one great article (like this one was for me) is a huge price to pay.

This could even go for books. I try reading as much as possible, but it seems like 98% of books I find randomly recommended to me could easily fit into 10 pages, but instead they get drawn out into infinite repetitions because that's the only way nowdays to sell books. If someone was willing to charge me for a well-curated list of books with well written synopsis and a good indication of "Is it worth reading the whole thing even when you know the overall idea", I'd be a happy customer.

Maybe there are people on Substack doing this?

That sounds like Blinkist. They pitch it as a way to avoid having to read books, but it seems like you could use it to get the gist and decide if you want to read the whole thing.

Sounds like it, yes. However, re. my first question about sharing feeds and building a sort of community around it, I cannot really find anything interesting. But maybe twitter/reddit/HN are fulfilling this gap already, although not neraly to the extent I'm imagining here.

Reddit is one of the only sites I feel it's necessary to block on my home network. The rabbit hole is long, deep and dangerous for child/teen development IMO.

Awesome. If the aim is to protect tweens/teens from strange corners of the internet that could mess with their development, make sure to block discord as well

YouTube, google.com, the list is truly endless.

Stopped going on Facebook and Reddit.

YMMV but I honestly felt much better nearly immediately. My life didn’t change in any macro sense - same job, same relationships etc, but baseline mood improved.

Again YMMV, and I’m loathe to say Facebook or Reddit or Twitter or anything is bad or evil or even addictive. I’m not a crusader. But for me going on Facebook for an hour subjectively made me less happy than not going on Facebook.

Facebook and Instagram are easy to diagnose: people post only their wins and their anger, so you end up feeling miserable and/or angry. It's like going to a party where everyone is richer and more beautiful than you, and they are all talking about politics. Same for twitter.

Reddit is more about simple time-wasting and dopamine hits.

I've forgotten what the alternative is like. Most of my hobbies, notwithstanding the minimal social media use, rely on the computer. I use it to write, to manage and search recipes to cook with, to use music notation or tabs, to game. I've had to deliberately schedule some low-tech/low-fi activities for myself but they are few in number: there is a barrier of inconvenience in the form of travel, cost, and timing for social activities. Therefore they are relegated to the weekends if anything. I wonder if historically after working hours and time with family, were people primarily engaged in social activity owing to the dearth of ways to amuse ourselves alone? I say this not really wanting or missing more of a social life than I have, I have my needs met with just family and occasional friends. On the other hand I recognize a kind of saturation point with electronic use, that if I rely on them too long it is to the detriment of my well-being.

All of which to say I have no idea how I ought to organize life around computers differently.

>> All of which to say I have no idea how I ought to organize life around computers differently.

I'll give you an example of something I've done recently which has made a big difference. Although, I don't have ideas on how to apply this to other aspects of my computer use (but open to ideas).

I listen to a lot of music. My teenage years/20's revolved completely around music. But I've gotten to a point where Apple Music/Spotify have become like Netflix to me - I have so much choice I don't know what to choose. I like to buy vinyl but it's expensive and not practical for most of my daily listening. I thought about it and realised that, for me, the time when music and technology merged for the best overall experience was the iPod (pre-Touch). I would mostly listen to albums I bought via iTunes (i.e. I cared enough about them to spend money and would listen to them a lot) and I checked out new music via Spotify (which was available in the UK in maybe 06/07) and then bought the stuff I liked on iTunes so I could take it with me on my iPod.

So I bought an iPod Classic on eBay. I deleted all the music I'd 'added' to Apple Music over the years leaving only my pre-streaming purchases (I also signed up for iTunes Match to backup and sync all my Bandcamp purchases + vinyl download card tracks). I've went back to my system of Spotify for new stuff, purchasing new stuff on iTunes, and syncing it to my iPod. It weirdly feels like a burden has been lifted having so much unnecessary choice removed. It's giving me a chance to get obsessed with the stuff I like again instead of quickly moving on to the next thing the algorithm throws at me. I highly recommend it. Currently thinking of ways I can apply this elsewhere in my life (e.g. purchasing TV/movies on iTunes instead of using streaming services but this could get very expensive very quickly).

Personally I don't rely on Spotify for recs, or even regular listening. I like finding things through online communities (including old ones), college radio, and in lesser cases the youtube algorithm.

My only purchases now are through bandcamp or at concerts.

Likewise. The Spotify listening I do is to check out albums I've discovered elsewhere before putting down some money for them. So typically new releases from artists I already know, recommendations from friends, or support acts at concerts I'm planning to attend. I should try to purchase through Bandcamp more as a first option before iTunes.

You've isolated yourself from the world man, if it wasn't Internet it would've been something else. If you really don't want to be isolated you can change that right now.

> if it wasn't Internet it would've been something else

I think that is a big assumption to make for someone we don't know well. I do believe some unique experiences can have a huge effect on individuals and other experiences might not replicate the same results.

Agreed on the latter point. But on the former, would it though? Prior to the internet, isolating yourself from the world involved making a very deliberate and drastic life choice that completely changed your environment, like joining a monastery. Now though, a compelling and addictive alternate world awaits us in our pocket at all times. Indeed, I doubt either of us really cares much about this “conversation” or each other yet here we are wasting part of our morning shouting into the void. On that note I think I’m done with unintentional internet use for the day.

Spot on. Much, much easier to isolate yourself now.

In fact, I'll concede it is even possible that you have to work not to isolate yourself when, after dipping your toe into the internet, you trip into the rabbit hole.

It cuts both ways though. Without the internet I know for one I would definitely be a lot more isolated and have fewer social connections.

> I doubt either of us really cares much about this “conversation” or each other yet here we are

One of the big problems is that we do care for the conversation on these forums (see also the classic "somebody is WRONG on the internet" xkcd), but we don't really care for each other. Relatively few of us end up actually meeting offline or ever establishing real relationships. So you get the illusion of socialization, but when the chips are down, nobody is going to care in your hour of need - which means you're indeed alone shouting into the void.

This was maybe less pronounced in the '90s, when internet groups were smaller and tighter. It's like sitting at some cafe on a small square talking to strangers - where in the past you'd be talking to the small cast of regulars, because the square was a bit hidden away from the main flow of people, but it has been since discovered by tourists, and now you're just chatting with passersby you'll never meet again, about topics you'll never do anything about.

I mean, the internet IS (was?) my social life; I hate going out (see: overstimulation / sensory processing disorder), I didn't understand existing social activities (see: autism spectrum disorder), and most 'nerdy' hobbies that are then advertised are dominated by (often toxic) men that I don't want to associate with.

I mean I don't think I'm that far out there, these activities cost a lot of mental energy and leaving my comfort zone, and I like to think that thanks to the pandemic, a lot more people have become OK with being at home.

Anyway yeah, the internet was my social life, it's where I met my live-in girlfriend, it's where I spend my spare time, it's fine for me.

I don't understand these negative comments about what "computers/internet" has done to me etc.

Yes, there are certainly aspects of computers, the internet and especially social networking and instant-texting that have a net negative impact on our lives.

But this argument strikes me as a "I'm such a victim" argument. Surely if you allow some device to have such a massive negative impact on your life then this would be the case even pre-90s before computers and the internet became mainstream?

- Maybe you might have spent too much time hanging out at your local bar? - Perhaps you'd have been addicted to television?

The one area, where I wholeheartedly agree and recognize the serious dangerous of the internet and computer devices is in children. The threat of cyber-bullying and indeed, rather more subtle, the attention-seeking culture of always producing content at a young age is IMO, very scary when thought of in the context that these will be future adults who didn't know better. We need to guard against these enabled social pressures like we protect kids from smoking, drugs, alcohol and even to a lesser extend (i.e. it's not illegal) addictions to things like TV, video games and other behaviors that they might fall prey to.

I guess, summed up what I am saying is: It appears that there the internet has developed a predatory nature on one's attention that extends to threaten one's social status and reputation.

Where I disagree is that - as adults - we know better and can combat this with self-discipline and by choosing our friends/social circles wisely (I don't engage with friends who constantly text or post online. I'm happy to meet but they know not to expect my participation there).

Where I agree is that, children are vulnerable to this and must be protected AND TAUGHT how to treat / interact with the internet.

Unfortunately, since this is relatively a new thing in society. We have not yet developed a solid culture around what is acceptable and what is not. Just like it is inconceivable now to smoke inside a closed room, or someone's house, I do hope that in the future it would be inconceivable to upload compromising information/pictures to random servers in foreign countries. But alas, we are not there yet.

> Surely if you allow some device to have such a massive negative impact on your life then this would be the case even pre-90s before computers and the internet became mainstream?

Yes, but we are not living in the pre-90's. The internet is the TV/bar/etc. for us now. Some of us recognize that we not only gained but lost something as well.

And we want what we lost back.

In many ways I agree with you. I would like also to return to simpler times. Especially insta-texting (whatsapp) etc. SMS was fine for me to organise a meetup and then talk in person.

I guess my stance is more kind of to protect my mental sanity, to try and make this a "self-discipline" problem that I can control, and hence reduce my exposure/time online. That suits me but I do agree that to some degree there needs to be a wider societal change and I do agree that it can't all be placed on the individual to be super strong mentally when the internet is now literally a life necessity for operating in society in any dimension.

Do we really want a return of drinking at the bar after work?

I think a lot of social validation once came easy by mere virtue that we lived so closely to one another, and suburbia flipped that on it's head. Once it was the case that social activity required a) transport, b) money, c) time, it has become increasingly devoid from weeknights. We could remedy this by changing physical structures, but we won't.

In the U.S. we never had a "local" (Public House, Pub). But from what I understand, it was a nice way to mingle with those not necessarily in your social class, "industry".

The DMV feels to me like the only place now where I share a seat with people not like me.

> Surely if you allow some device to have such a massive negative impact on your life then this would be the case even pre-90s before computers and the internet became mainstream?

The mechanisms of addiction and socialization are definitely more complex than "it made me do it". I'm not saying that without the internet I would have become World President, but the technology definitely nudged me towards indulging some of the worst traits in my character. It also allowed me to tolerate situations that, probably, I should not have tolerated - which feels good in the immediate but can actually postpone a necessary reckoning. And it heavily influenced my career choices, with mixed results.

> Maybe you might have spent too much time hanging out at your local bar? - Perhaps you'd have been addicted to television?

Maybe, but those are well-known behaviors, fairly easy to spot and compensate for. Bars are actually hypersocial and promote local connections and some degree of personal expression. TV is very passive and boring, whereas on the internet there is always something new to read or do.

It wasn't until the '80s that we got a fairly solid (and popular) understanding of the mechanisms of broadcasting, some 60 years since it had become mainstream; as you said, there are a lot of things we don't know about the new world of 24h online access. Undoubtedly my life choices are ultimately my fault, but "no man is an island" cuts both ways - particularly because I see a lot of my (bad) experiences replicated in a lot of my friends.

I see your point and think you have quite a valid argument there! Some of the things you said definitely echo with my experiences. For example, I do surf the net too much because I love new information. And perhaps without that access I'd be a lot happier focusing on actual physical things in front of me.

I guess it's not as simple as boiling it down to the individual's own self-control. To some degree maybe my stance is also biased in that I want to empower myself to be the one to reduce my time online.

> It wasn't until the '80s that we got a fairly solid (and popular) understanding of the mechanisms of broadcasting

Curious what you mean by "the mechanisms of broadcasting" here--what discovery/formalization/legislation/else do you mean?

There is a massive library of analysis on the effects of broadcasting, from McLuhan to Eco. Most of it was put together in the 60s/70s and became popular outside academic circles in the 80s.

Will highlight from your comments that alcohol consumption appeared to be more of a scourge before the internet. Before the world of personal leisure opened up, and after the creation of disconnected suburbia, I would guess drinking at the bar with workmates was a common extracurricular.

> The one area, where I wholeheartedly agree and recognize the serious dangerous of the internet and computer devices is in children. The threat of cyber-bullying and indeed, rather more subtle, the attention-seeking culture of always producing content at a young age is IMO, very scary when thought of in the context that these will be future adults who didn't know better. We need to guard against these enabled social pressures like we protect kids from smoking, drugs, alcohol and even to a lesser extent (i.e. it's not illegal) addictions to things like TV, video games and other behaviors that they might fall prey to.

This is always an interesting discussion to me as one of the first kids to really grow up online. (It still weirds me out that my childhood is illegal now.)

> Unfortunately, since this is relatively a new thing in society. We have not yet developed a solid culture around what is acceptable and what is not.

Also unfortunately, I doubt we will until Gen Z and Gen Alpha grow up and start having their own kids. I didn't really start to reckon with the bad parts of growing up online and the ways that it may have shifted my development until I was in my 30s and starting to see the same behavior in current kids and realizing 'wow, that was f'ed up.' Right now, there just aren't many adults who can speak to spending a shit ton of time online as pre-teens, and kids can smell inexperienced bullshit a mile away.

The other possible outcome is that the curriculum/culture for this will be written by people in power who have no idea what being a child on the internet is actually like + it will be written as a political football, so it will be completely ineffectual.

> in social terms, it has taken a big toll, significantly isolating me from the world, which I didn't admit until very recently.

counterpoint: my entire social scene, and all of my best friends, came from a subculture that I found on an internet mailing list, on a listserv run by the guy who made the Apache webserver. A bunch of my other friends came from IRC.

If it weren't for the 'net, I'm not sure I'd have any good people in my life at all.

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