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Comment by WalterBright | Hacker News Reader

Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston? Man, what a voice! Ditto for David Cassidy.

I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people.

Like the Monkees.

I shudder to think what a modern sound engineer would do to "fix" Robert Plant's totally unique voice.

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> Ok, where is today's Whitney Houston?

In the mainstream: Adele, Sia, Ariana Grande, just to name a few.

> I even saw a documentary on autotune where a music executive remarked that they don't look for great singers anymore, because the sound engineers can "fix" it. They look for pretty people.

That was never different. Madonna is an absolute terrible singer, for instance, and that was fixed long before autotune existed. For recording, you just make heave use of vocal comping. Live, you can use a combination of (soft) playback and background singers.

But at least Pop was never about "perfect" voices, but unique, recognizable voices that can convey emotion, and that hasn't really changed. Bowie, Björk, Leonard Cohen, Thom Yorke, Damon Albarn, these are simply great voices, but they can barely hold a tone.

I understand the appeal of unusual voices (Stevie Nicks), but they aren't what I'm talking about.

Madonna has great tone.

> Adele

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3ASj1L6_sY

The tone sounds manipulated to me. There's a weird effect I hear a lot these days that seems to remove the smoothness.

> Sai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CW6-0PhCkGs

Lots of electronic effects applied.

> Ariana Grande

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcYodQoapMg

obvious autotune

> Madonna

Why do you say she was terrible? Are you listening to the stuff she did in the 80's, or now?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s__rX_WL100

This video shows her tone:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fzeNUqQbQ

For comparison, here's Whitney Houston:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH3giaIzONA

If you'd look at live recordings, you see that these women are great singers, whereas Madonna cannot hold a tone for a second. Madonna would never have had a chance as a singer without a ton of studio equipment.

So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced. I can certainly agree that autotune is overused nowadays. That's a fad that will go away eventually, just like the talk box, gated reverbs or heavy chorus effects.

I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone.

> So what you are actually complaining is how modern music is produced.

Well, sure. That's what I hear. To hear good singing, I have to go back to the 80s and earlier.

I still don't hear anything that can compete with the singers I listed. I listened to the singers you suggested. Listen to the links I suggested :-)

> I'm interested in a link to where Madonna (in her prime in the 80s) can't hold a tone.

https://youtu.be/KrG8okV9R3w?t=724

The early Madonna stuff is really easy to sing, and she's really struggling. She has no control over her breathing and does the usual tricks to compensate: finish early and let the background singers take over, vocal fry, "squeeking" and other kinds of ornamentations to avoid holding notes. She clearly has had no formal training whatsoever at that point.

Which is fine. As I said, this is pop, good singing is overrated, other stuff is much more important, and I actually vastly prefer Madonna over Whitney Houston any time of the day.

Thanks for the link. But I think it is a bit unfair. Madonna is trying to sing while dancing. How can anyone have breath control while panting? How can anyone hold a note while bouncing up and down? Music videos where the singer is singing and dancing are all lip synced. They often even lip sync their concerts.

(How do I know they lip sync them? Because their "live" singing exactly matches the radio cut of their song! Nobody ever sings a song exactly the same way twice.)

Secondly, Madonna's tone still comes through as great. Breath control comes with training and practice, but you can't fix anyone who doesn't have great tone.

There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups.

But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation.

If you’re not looking for them and are just waiting for them to be spoon-fed to you, well of course you’re not going to get them. It’s not what sells and majors can polish the product in post, so that’s what they do, as with movies, they have no reason not to.

And with the rise of modern tech and social medias, they don’t need to sign up to majors to make their art and a living (though they’ll often associate with such for publishing e.g. Collier is self-produced and has the personal label Haganja but partners with Geffen - universal - and Decca).

> There’s plenty of great singers out there, plenty of mostly or completely acoustic groups. But you have to look for them, they’re not chart toppers, they haven’t been for more than a generation.

Exactly. They're out of fashion.

Which is a very different proposition than the original assertion that modern singers can’t sing, or that autotune is “killing music”.

Not at all. A great singer laboring in obscurity with only a dozen fans doesn't count.

Bell-bottom jeans are out of fashion, too. They might as well not exist today.

That... makes absolutely no sense.

We're in a golden age for music creation, you don't even need a garage and a band to get started (though it certainly helps for the more complex acts or if you want a band), people like Bo Burnham and Jacob Collier got their start (and part of their early fame) making youtube videos at home.

And probably most importantly you have no need whatsoever to be "discovered" by an "agent" or somesuch, you can have viewers and listeners from the other side of the globe, from your room.

I mean just look at this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IcVEx6UrtF8

That's a teenager in england (skillfully) playing with dissonant harmony in split-screen multitrack. The top commenter is a californian who'd go on to found Patreon the following month (or had founded it a month after the video was posted, youtube doesn't show exact dates for comments).

If it makes no sense, why do I not hear any modern great singers on the radio? On TV? In the movies? Getting awards?

Beyonce? Taylor Swift? Lady Gaga (see A Star is Born)? Bruno Mars? Rihanna? Katy Perry? Billie Eilish? Camila Cabello? Hell, even Justin Bieber.

Hell, Collier has already collected 5 grammies, and managed to get at least one for each of his first four albums.

Please post a youtube link you feel is representative of your point. I've been generous providing links supporting my findings. Your turn!

But hey, let's look at the first on your list, Beyonce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pPe7sxMVAY

Autotuned all the way. It sounds sweetened, as her tone changes from song to song. It sounds "adjusted" in a way I never hear from older songs. This is apparent around the 48 minute mark. Sometimes she pushes too hard and it sounds a bit screechy.

I saw (and heard!) A Star Is Born. I was so impressed by her singing, I rushed out and didn't buy the soundtrack, and can't recall anything she sung. Oh well. Julie Andrews she ain't.

Julie Andrews is probably the greatest female singer that ever existed. (Well, Marni Nixon who was so good she secretly dubbed the other stars deserves accolades!)

It's trivial to do so yourself if you just looked for live or acoustic performances. And there are even videos that do the work of isolating vocals for you:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUrjHF_vaY4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siPZOWMhXdA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ien38Lw2OLw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWnFnupgzdA

For your listening pleasure, may I present:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AVER6hyoyJo

And just for fun, from 1987, best cover evar:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2AUOAGlASRQ

> if you just looked for

It's sad to have to dig for them.

Yes, yes, I’ve already seen the trailer for the new Matrix sequel which rather hamfistedly uses that song.

Most of those videos are easily found simply by searching “$ARTIST [no autotune | acoustic | live]”.

I didn't know that about the Matrix sequel. Being a crusty old moron, as other HNers have accurately labeled me, I thought the first Matrix sucked and so never watched the sequels.

But don't you think it's sad that a modern movie has to reach back in time 35 years to find a good song to use?

(I bought that Sanctuary album back in the 80's, when Brain Pain was broadcasting their metal show weekly. I miss Brain Pain.)

I find it absurd to claim great vocalists are out of fashion when we've had two decades of mainstream pop cultural fascination towards finding new raw talent via massively popular singing competition shows such as $COUNTRY's Got Talent, The X Factor, The Voice, etc.

As others have noted, it's certainly possible that modern production styles skew too heavily towards hiding natural voices, but to say that modern culture deemphasizes great natural vocalists makes no sense.

How many enduring stars have those talent shows actually produced though? The first season of American Idol got us Kelly Clarkson, who is still well known enough. That was 20 years ago though. Can most people name any other winner of these talent shows?

Meanwhile several massive stars who have become household names (Taylor Swift, Katy Perry, Kesha, Justin Bieber etc.) have arisen more-or-less the old fashioned way; via good marketing and viral music. And then there's Disney (Ariana Grande, Selena Gomez, Olivia Rodrigo, and Britney ofc, though she's another story...).

None of these stars became big by virtue of having particularly stellar vocals. But their voices were unique and suited to their music (and the likes of Kesha and Bieber made auto-tune part of their signature....what's T-Pain been up to recently?).

Honestly if one is looking to make it big in pop music, they'd be wasting their time participating in any of these talent shows, even if they do win. These days you just start a TikTok account...

I'm not sure raw technical talent in singing or playing was ever particularly emphasized in popular music, rather just a nice perk and fodder for stan wars.

You're not wrong that many of the winners end up becoming obscure anyway, though Carrie Underwood is another prominent counterexample [0] similar to Kelly Clarkson. But my point is that the previous poster's assertion that modern music doesn't care about great singers is plainly false. Pop culture is certainly still enamored with finding new voices, both through singing competition shows and online platform viral breakout hits. Natural talent is still prized, even if the actual music industry process and song production would seem to diminish that.

[0] More musicians that received early publicity from singing shows:

https://www.openmicuk.co.uk/advice/famous-singers-from-talen...

https://www.eonline.com/photos/19891/stars-who-got-their-sta...

> modern music doesn't care about great singers is plainly false

So far, the counter-examples given of great singers turned out to be electronically manipulated to sound better.

C'mon. Post a link to a popular modern one with better tone than Whitney Houston, Karen Carpenter, Grace Slick, Madonna, David Cassidy, (I can name many more), and didn't electronically "enhance" their singing.

How could they have been electronically manipulated if these singing competitions are done live without mixing or autotune? We're talking about talent tested under the most raw conditions. You haven't even bothered to provide any evidence to the contrary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uC21yoI8Di8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWGyVNriJ78

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGN1ST87x-U

It is absolutely insane to claim that there are no prominent modern artists with singing abilities comparable to those in the past. Just trivially disprovable. If we were to go beyond the domain of winner of song competitions, there are plenty of acoustic or live performances from other pop superstars that demonstrate singing capability.

Thank you for being the first to provide links to unprocessed songs to make your point. I appreciate it.

BTW, autotune can and certainly is used in live concerts. Musicians have personally told me they use it! They also pump their vocals through effects pedals. What else are they using?

I don't know about competitions.

> You haven't even bothered to provide any evidence to the contrary.

I can't prove a negative. But I've provided many links to popular songs of old, and compared them to popular songs of today.

> absolutely insane

Cool your jets, dude! This is a friendly discussion. I actually want to be wrong here. I listen to popular music all the time, on the radio, Pandora, various streaming stations, and of course I hear it in the movie soundtracks. I want to hear a singer that sounds like an angel, not a Cylon.

Kelly Clarkson - she sounds ok. Not wild about it. Yes, I'm picky. Am I wrong? Compare her to Julie Andrews, decades past her prime https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Te85B8BjlSY and she still blows Clarkson away. And in her prime? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvQ4t-Nk128 still gives me chills to hear her. And that's what a song sounds like without autotune. Amazing!

Carry Underwood - she should never have tried to upstage Julie Andrews! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uo6o1bhWlD8 It's good, but she is just not in the ballpark of JA. No chills there.

Jordin Sparks - nothing but good things to say about her singing. Is she great? Not sure. I think she needs a better song to showcase her abilities. But thanks! P.S. the link is from 14 years ago. A long time in the music biz.

Thanks for watching and digesting these videos. fwiw, not a single person here is comparing any of them to Andrews. All of this is in service of refuting the original statement that “that modern singers can't sing”, which by your own admission, is flatly false.

P.S., while it’s perfectly for to personally believe that Julie Andrews is the best female vocalist of all time, it’s far harder to consider it a matter of empirical fact. One can easily assert that Ella Fitzgerald, Etta James, or Celine Dion is better. One’s mileage always varies.

I've heard all three of those. Andrews wins by a knockout in the first round. I bought Dion's albums, too. Sorry, dude!

The only problem with Andrews is her songbook is kinda small. She burned very brightly, but all too briefly.

But I have a suggestion for you. Get the bluray of Sound of Music. Put it on play. Forget about the schmaltzy plot, the sappy lyrics, the saccharine emoting, the cardboard characters. Just listen to the music. You'll be blown away. I envy anyone hearing it for the first time. If you're up to it, figure out which character is Marni Nixon without looking it up.

And lest I forget, check out Roberta Flack. She gives me chills, too.

Sorry, I prefer Mary Poppins to Sound of Music.

Thanks for the Flack rec.

Mary Poppins is certainly JA's other great film.

Roberta Flack:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d8_fLu2yrP4

Enjoy! It just doesn't get any better than that. Just perfection.

It's impossible to know at this point who would pass in your mind. Isn't it possible you just don't care for the examples that have been offered already?

As far as my ear can tell, Lady Gaga, Adele, Pink, Beyonce, Rihanna, Christina Aguilera, and Miley Cyrus all qualify for the purposes of this subthread. I'm not going to claim they're "better" than Whitney Houston - that's kind of an impossibly high bar. I do think they're excellent, and to the best of my ability to determine via the internet, they don't use autotune.

As I commented elsewhere, Beyonce is clearly using autotune. The best way to tell the difference is to just become familiar with singers that predate autotune. It's the way they abruptly (too quickly) shift notes, and then stay dead on the note. You'll hear it after a while, and then you can't unhear it. It's a one-way ticket.

> that's kind of an impossibly high bar

So true. But so is Karen Carpenter, Julie Andrews, Grace Slick, etc., that all predate autotune. I suspect a cause and effect there.

Good sound engineers know when not to mess with good voices. Problem is that there's so few of them these days that they need autotune

Oh, but they do mess with it. I don't know, for example, if Adele is a great singer or not, because her voice is messed with by the sound engineers.

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