Aranese: Spain's little-known language | Hacker News Reader

Aranese: Spain's little-known language

bbc.com

126 pointsThevet146 comments

Aranese is fairly normal Gascon speech, I don't think it qualifies as its own subdialect [1]. This being said, there's something to be said about Gascon as a whole potentially being its own language, as is considered Catalan. Among Occitan dialects, it's highly eccentric.

As for Aranese speakers, to me (I have some amount of Limousin and Provençal) native ones [2] are understandable to the same extent as other Gascon speakers, but new speakers who bring Castellan phonological features are incomprehensible. If it manages to survives in this environment, it could truly be a new language in the making.

[1]: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Isoglosas_gasc%C3%B3...

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdYpvY6Efos

Imagine my first time discovering when I found out that Limousin(car) (apparently)is named after a region and that there is language named Limousin.

It's also the name of a cattle breed that's native to the region [1] and famed for its meat, as well as the name by which the very language discusses in this thread used to go by during the Middle Ages (as the Limousin dialect formed the basis for the normalized form of Occitan, that was used by the Troubadour movement ever since its inception by Eble II of Ventadorn).

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limousin_cattle

It's also a girl's name - Limousine. We had a French girl by that name stay with us on an exchange visit.

I mean, it's only a Limousine if it comes fron the french region of Limousin. Otherwise it's just an unnecessarily long sparkling car.

There's a pretty apt phrase that applies here: a language is a dialect with an army and a navy

Compare with the Serbian/Croatian "languages" that are far more mutually intelligible than varieties of the Chinese "language".

I've heard that Arabic also has far more variance than is between Serbian and Croatian. Even though we often refer to it as a single language, it's actually a very diverse selection of varieties that are not all mutually intelligible.

In short, the distinction is pretty arbitrary.

They used to say "Serbo-Croatian" before the war.

Only in Serbia, in Croatia it was "Croato-Serbian".

when you compare serbian and croatian and find them fairly similar it's worth keeping in mind that only holds true for the standard versions of those languages.

thing is these standard versions were developed and agreed upon more or less at a time -- mid 19th century and the whole nationalist movements thing in europe -- when there was a unitarian tendency among south slavic nations. so the standard versions are (1) essentially artificial, and (2) politically motivated to an extent.

once you get on the ground level of spoken language you find far more variance within each of the two -- the regional and even local dialects are very different from each other, to the point of seemingly being whole different languages were it not for the developed standard versions that tie them together.

The Croatian government is now trying to encourage more linguistic differentiation from Serbian by introducing neologisms that were never used in standard Serbo-Croatian.

with little or no practical success. but yes, standard language development is essentially an ongoing political process imo. nation states trying to prove they're unique basically.

i suspect this is the case all around the world to a greater or lesser extent.

Yes but historic dialect boundaries didnt follow modern national boundaries at all - see link below

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shtokavian#/media/File%3ASht...

Which sounds like it contributed to the various wars on the Balkans.

I don't know if you are referring to other languages also spoken in Croatia which are not Croatian (Istriot). They might not be the same language, but I would bet that if two speakers, one of Croatian (of the three main dialects), and one of Serbian, want to communicate, they will find very little difficulty (like between British English and American English speakers) in doing so.

that's indeed very likely if they're using standard versions of their respective languages.

but if someone from let's say east istria and south serbia communicated in the traditional local dialects spoken there there'd be a significant degree of confusion and misunderstanding between them -- that's my bet at least.

Yes, a Mancunian and a New Zealander might have similar if not more trouble.

It's the same with Scots (as opposed to Scottish Gaelic). Is it a dialect or a separate (although closely related) language to English? If Scotland becomes independent, Scots would very likely gain full language status for as much political as linguistic reasons.

Then we have "Italian" and "German". If these countries had not undergone unification in the 19th century would Duolingo be offering courses in Venetian and Bavarian?

>Is it a dialect or a separate (although closely related) language to English?

As I see it, Scots and Standard English are two dialects of the same language.

>If these countries had not undergone unification in the 19th century would Duolingo be offering courses in Venetian and Bavarian?

Tuscan and High German became the standard with the Renaissance and the printing press, centuries before nationalism.

Different areas of Italy in particular had different literary vernaculars over time. One's that's particularly amusing to me is Franco-Venetian [1].

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-Italian

"High German" is basically the dialect spoken in the Hanover area.

> As I see it, Scots and Standard English are two dialects of the same language.

It doesn't matter how you personally see it. Linguists and other scholars are divided on the issue. It's recognized as a regional language by UNESCO and the Council of Europe as well as the UK and Scottish governments. There's also a spectrum from "Standard English spoken with a Scottish accent with some odd words thrown in" and broad Scots.

Danish and Norwegian (or at least Bokmål) are perhaps as close as Scots and English (I only have a passing familiarity with these so native speakers can confirm), but are considered distinct languages on as much political as linguistic grounds, which is my point - the distinction is as much political and historic as linguistic (i.e. there used to be a language only a few decades ago called "Serbo-Croatian").

>Tuscan and High German became the standard with the Renaissance and the printing press, centuries before nationalism.

It depends on what you mean by "standard". Tuscan was certainly the literary dialect, but most areas of modern Italy did not speak standardised Italian from the Renaissance period onward, except at the level of government.

>In short, the distinction is pretty arbitrary.

Linguistically, the distinction is much more objective (also it's not always clear cut, because there are asymmetries between speeches in terms of how understandable they are to each other) : two kinds of speech that are not inter-comprehensible are different languages. Dialects and sub-dialects are defined by isoglosses, see the map I link in my original post.

Arabic is, much like Chinese, both a linguistic group and a language (Modern Standard Arabic).

I dont know how it is in other European countries, but at least in Spain, the slightest change in dialect+ some geographical distance will make people call their dialect a different language, and they may even not be wrong. And it is funny because that guy has a very marked Catalan accent, but they say it is the French side that brought French phonology to Occitan making it very difficult to understand.

This only applies to "regional" languages though. For example, Spanish has different dialects yet nobody would suggest Andalusian isn't Spanish, but an entire different language. The political motivation is clear.

Well andalusian does not have different words, just different accent and pronunciation, whilst catalan galician and basque have a different vocabulary, so there’s that.

Andalusian tongues have different words and different tenses. However, these are dialects because they have not been politicized like Catalan or Basque (less the Galician).

In the case of Galician, one of the first to write in the Galician language was Alfonso X, the Castilian king, so there’s that to using languages as a political tool.

Basque is a completely different language, there is no real debate about that one. It is not even a romance language. If you want to look for politicized linguistic debate in Spain, try Valencian vs. Catalan :)

Basque is a different beast, totally. An orphaned language that some say it has some Iberian or even North-African roots… However, is not an indoeuropeas languages, a gem on its own.

Having said that, the push for normalization of the Basque has mad some Basques angry because they don’t speak “standard” Basque.

Catalan is derived from Latin not Spanish, and Basque roots are not even Latin. So, it seems to me, that to say they are not dialects because they have been politicized is a politic statement in itself.

No, I never said that Catalan is a dialect, it is indeed a language.

But Catalan nationalists are even trying to remove all Spanish from the education [1][2] even by disobeying court sentences.

If you compare the situation between Catalan and Galicia. You can see it clearly. Galician is not used by most people nor politicians as a political tool. Catalan is sadly being used as such.

[1] https://www.elperiodico.com/es/sociedad/20211123/sentencia-2...

[2] https://www.europapress.es/nacional/noticia-parlament-catala...

You literally said that Andalusian and others "are dialects because they have not been politicized like Catalan or Basque", suggesting that what makes a language a language instead of a dialect it's its political weight.

Certainly, Catalan is used as a political tool, but it's a little hypocritical to think that Spanish is not. We all know how political questions should be solved in a democracy.

I explained myself poorly, English is not my first language. Andalusian is a set of dialects were Basque, Catalan and Galician are languages.

Having said that, Catalan and Basque have been used as a political tool for decades, much less the Galician, and not the Andalusian dialects of Spanish.

Hope this comment clarifies what I’m trying to say.

I'm probably going against HN rules on commenting but the only one being "politicized" here is you. Saying with a straight face that Euskera (aka Basque) should be a dialect of Castillian is at very least an ignorant position, if not straight a bad faith one.

I never said that Basque is a dialect. I’m saying that some Basque nationalists have used language or even DNA to divide the society between what they consider Basque, and the other ones.

I'm talking about the dialects of these languages (in the case of Catalan, Valencian and Balearic), which according to some constitute different languages altogether. But the same people who say these dialects are a separate languages, don't say that dialects of Spanish (e.g. Andalusian) are a separate languages, even though the degree of differentiation is roughly the same in both cases.

If you put yourself into a descriptive standpoint you will see that Andalusian has distinctive features: in phonetics (the most salient being they use open/close vowel sounds to mark plural/singular), in grammar (inversion of direct object & reflexive), in words and expressions (many of them are known, but never used in other regions, thanks to sharing a cultural background, TV, etc). Although, functionally, it is mutually intelligible (at least 90%) with other variations of Spanish. The functional aspect is what I would use to separate whether two ways of speaking fall into the same language or not.

The funny thing is that Aranese is an official language at Val d'Aran, with all of the requisite legal protections to speakers. This makes Spain the only country where Occitan/Gascon (assuming with you and others that it is the same language; some apparently disagree) is an official language.

Your second link is catalan to me... I could understand 100% and I don't know any Gascon language...

He's got a somewhat Catalan accent and Catalan itself used to be part of Occitan, the boundaries aren't quite clear where they meet (whether in Aran or in Roussillon). It became its own language after Peter the Catholic died at the battle of Muret. Catalonia became culturally and politically cut out from Southern France and Catalan developed its own standard in isolation from the other courts it previously was affiliated with.

There are some other languages in Spain like Basque (pretty well known), Galician and Aragonese https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aragonese_language

Let's not forget Valencian, which if I understand correctly the Catalans gently pat on the head and say "there, there dear, if you want to pretend to be a different language from Catalan, we won't get in your way", while the Valencians irritatedly insist "It's not Catalan! It's a different language!"

It’s complicated than that. Valencian is at best a dialect of Catalan, the differences are not significant enough to considere them two separate languages.

The rejection of considering Valencian as Catalan has some links to Blaverism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blaverism a “weird” Spanish nationalist movement from Valencia with marked Anti-Catalan character.

Oficial languages in Spain are Basque, Catalan, Galician and Spanish (obviously). They survive others such as Aragonese, Bable or Extremeñu. Plus the Spanish dialects such as the Southern ones.

> the differences are not significant enough to considere them two separate languages.

There are beach-front plaques in at least 2 towns near Valencia that, ahem, vigorously dispute your position :)

Also, s/Spanish/Castillian/ surely?

Why shouldn’t the language be called Spanish? What about Italian or German?

Because there are several other languages (Galician, Aragonese, Asturianu, Estremeñu, etc) that are just as Spanish as Castilian is.

Did you notice that English is called English (from England) and not British? Quite logical IMHO, as in the UK several other languages are spoken (Welsh, Irish, Cornish, etc)

That’s nonsense in Italy and Germany there are other languages/dialects too and nobody changes the name to the main common language.

The case of English is different as the language was mainly used una part of the country, while Spanish rapidly extended to all regions.

So, according to you, the Spanish constitution is nonsense:

Article 3

1. Castilian is the official Spanish language of the State. All Spaniards have the duty to know it and the right to use it.

2. The other Spanish languages shall also be official in the respective Autonomous Communities in accordance with their Statutes.

3. The wealth of the different linguistic modalities of Spain is a cultural heritage that shall be the object of special respect and protection.

No, officially in Spain the language is Castilian. However, according to the RAE, it’s also called Spanish. Indeed the RAE recommends the use of “español” (Spanish) [1].

[1] https://www.rae.es/dpd/espa%C3%B1ol

> That’s nonsense in Italy and Germany there are other languages/dialects too and nobody changes the name to the main common language.

Because Italy is still in its nationalist infancy, being united as big, single, 19th century cool nation for a little more than 150 years. But many of the "dialects" spoken in Italy are actually different languages with different vocabulary, grammar rules etc.

Italy and Germany were both unified much more recently than Spain, and by popular nationalist movements. The selection of their national dialects was basically artificial, since Tuscan Italian and Hochdeutsch were not widely spoken in either country.

The status of languages like Castillan is much more controversial, because they are only the national dialect by conquest. (French is in a similar position, though it cleverly shares the name with the country it is the national language of.) It doesn't help that the French and Spanish governments have historically suppressed "dialects" in favour of the national language in an immoral and shameful way.

>The case of English is different as the language was mainly used una part of the country

English is the most used language throughout the UK. There are almost no non-English-speaking communities left in Wales or Scotland, and language (much like everything else to do with the English) is a contentious political issue in Northern Ireland.

However, it would be grossly inappropriate to start calling this language "British", even when just referring to how it is spoken in the UK - because of many of the same historical features as Castillan and French.

My mother tongue is Catalan, which is as Spanish as Castilian itself.

The problem is that both Catalan and Spanish nationalists like the idea to identify Castilian with Spanish. The Catalan separatists like that because it is the proof they are not Spaniards, since Catalan is not from Spain, and the Spanish nationalists like it because it puts the other Spanish language in a second level, something they love.

Not surely, and even surely not:

https://rpstranslations.wordpress.com/2013/06/18/is-it-spani...

In the (Spanish) Basque Country no one calls Basque 'Basque', it is almost universally referred to as Euskara.

There is a Basque newspaper called “El diario Vasco” [1] so I’m afraid that your assessment is incorrect.

[1] https://www.diariovasco.com

Doesn't that refer to the country or the people rather than the language? Perhaps I should have been clearer in my comment;

In my experience almost no one in the Basque Country refers to the Basque language as 'Basque', it is generally referred to as Euskara, even by non-native speakers.

Well, one of my work buddies was Basque (sadly he passed away) and spoke about “vascos” all the time. He could speak Basque perfectly (even to the point of recognizing the different dialects) and he was from a small town, were Euskera es more prevalent. That’s my experience.

Vasco is to someone del país vasco as Brit is to someone from Britain. It’s referring to nationality not language.

He told me he saw some ad in “Vasco” in an occupied house…

Fair enough. Maybe he was using the same way we say español when we really mean castellano

Well, if it’s their language, why are not going to call it “vasco”? They are indeed “vascos”. Seems fine to me.

That's true, but that's like saying that french people don't call themselves "french", but "français".

> It’s complicated than that. Valencian is at best a dialect of Catalan

If anything, Catalan is a dialect of Valencian since Valencian precedes Catalan. Source: look it up.

Catalans are taught a different story in school, which makes most of them believe your statement. Source: I am from Catalonia and I was taught Valencian to be one of Catalan's dialects, until I met some friends from Valencia who educated me on the subject.

"Source: look it up."

Those are the best, especially on controversial subjects. You basically say, that first you learned in catalan, that valencian is just a catalan dialect - and then you was influenced by people from Valencia who told you otherwise and for some reasons you rather believed them.

The question is, why should anyone here also believe those friends of yours? It just sounds to me, you have been influenced by different ideologies - as this is a politically loaded subject, where people usually do not apply scientific standards to a discussion, but rather emotions.

> If anything, Catalan is a dialect of Valencian since Valencian precedes Catalan. Source: look it up.

I had a quick look around, and most sources seem to disagree with you, with the first records of Valencian coming from circa 1350 [0] and Catalan starting around 300 years before [1].

If you have any authoritative sources to back that claim up, I'd be interested in seeing them.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valencian_language#Authors_and... [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catalan_language#Middle_Ages

As a non-Spaniard, I find the feud amusing.

> [...] when the European Union wanted to approve the European Constitution, the Valencian Government did not recognise the official translation wrote in Catalan from Barcelona and forced to have one in Valencian. To preserve the language unity, the Catalan Government accepted the Valencian translation has the official Catalan translation.

Total big brother move.

I'm from the Balearic Islands, Catalan (from Minorca) is my mother tongue. I aced the highest level Valencian (Nivell Superior) exam without studying. You judge if it is the same language or not.

Valencian is another name for the same language as Catalan. Those who disagree do so for political reasons, not actual linguistic reasons.

Some sentences in both "languages" and English. Catalan/Valencian/English

Bon dia/Bon dia/Good morning

Avui fa bon temps/Hui fa bon temps/The weather is good today

Volem acabar amb la COVID19/Volem acabar amb la COVID19/We want to end COVID19

Sembla que plourà/Pareix que plourà/Looks like it's going to rain.

There are two difrent words in 4 sentences. I can't really see how that makes them separate languages.

When I walked the Camino de Santiago (Catholic pilgrimage across Spain) there was one segment near the Pyrenees where lots of aggressive graffiti seemed to warn that "you are in Basque country now!"

Basque nationalism was quite a thing a few decades ago. I recall once my grandparents driving us from Pau in France down to Bilbao to see the Guggenheim, at one point we drove past the bombed out remains of a politicians car that had happened recently enough that it was still smoking.

Well, Basque nationalism is still a thing, as they hold the 58% of the seats in their parliament. What we don't have now, fortunately, are armed Basque nationalist organizations.

Yeah, sorry, poor choice of words on my part.

> Val d'Aran is the only community within Spain's contiguous borders that's located on the northern slopes of the Pyrenees.

That seems to hint at something not in the contiguous borders - but Llivia is still on the southern slopes from what I can tell.

I think maybe they meant Catalonia and failed at rewording Wikipedia [1], which says: "This valley constitutes the only contiguous part of Catalonia located on the northern side of the Pyrenees."

Your point still stands, that the wording is strange in Wikipedia, and River Runner agrees [2] that Llívia is on the south side. I think the BBC's wording is doubly incorrect, as there are other places in Spain north of the Pyrenees, e.g. Irun [3].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Val_d%27Aran

[2] https://river-runner-global.samlearner.com/?lng=1.9755776875...

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irun

In fact, they're wrong because of a much more subtle and little-known example. The village of Luzaide/Valcarlos (Basque/Castilian names) in Navarre is actually on the northern slopes of the Pyrenees by a tiny bit:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luzaide/Valcarlos

- https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/343733

Fun fact: The Catalan Government gave Aranese the same recognition as Catalan, so the small minority of Aranese speakers in Catalonia can communicate and do business with the Govt. in their language.

Note: only in use by the Catalan Govt. Not the Spanish Govt.

Another fun fact: the name Aran, like many place names in the western half of the Pyrenees (especially north Aragon), derives from proto-Basque languages that used to be spoken in the broad area. In particular, the name Aran comes from "haran" which means "valley", making Val d'Aran (or "Aran Valley") a tautological placename:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tautological_place_nam...

There is a similar situation in northern Italy, where there is an area known as Val di Non. Their dialect sounds as much French as Italian, even though it's south of Innsbruck, far from France.

These things seem to have one thing in common — they are areas historically isolated from one another, usually by mountains or valleys. Before cars (or even roads) were common, you could almost throw a rock at the next town over, but to actually go there would take a day or more.

Any other aranese speakers in HN?

Beth aranés més per ací?

To make the matter even more interesting, the term "Aran" is a basque toponim for "valley". So, Val d'Aran means "Valley of valley". It seems that basque was spoken there between XII and XIII according to wikipedia

ara ara

Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole.

Apparently, maintaining a historical and cultural element such as a language is not worth spending a neglectable amount of tax money because... it doesn't provide monetary returns?

Nothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return. That doesn't mean we should waste money, especially in a country like Spain.

Optimizing other’s culture

In my experience these movements are populated extensively by parents who won't put in the effort to learn "their" language pushing it on their children. (Speaking as a bitter Welsh guy)

I disagree wholeheartedly.

Although an AI engine would probably consider this 'better' and 'more efficient' this doesn't mean it's morally the right thing to do.

>especially in a country like Spain

Why specially Spain?

Their economy hasn’t been doing very well.

Maybe referring to the fact that Spain cannot afford spending money on its cultural heritage after having bailed out the banks with between 40 and 100 billion euros (or if those figures (from Wikipedia) are still too controversial, let's say at least a couple of billions only).

It is not wasting money if it helps mantaining cultural heritage. Just because you dont give it value, its not valueless.

> especially in a country like Spain.

Funny considering Catalonia pays more in taxes than Madrid.

I'm not sure why you are being down voted for saying this.

Citation here -> https://www.cnn.com/2017/09/27/europe/catalan-referendum-exp...

Old article. Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution).

Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.

That's simply not true: Spanish Constitution do allow autonomous communities to organize referenda.

As a matter of fact, quite a few have been held:

* Basque Country, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el proyecto de Estatuto de Autonomía para el País Vasco * Catalonia, 1979-10-25: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 1980-02-28: Referéndum sobre la iniciativa del proceso autonómico de Andalucía * Galicia, 1980-12-21: Referendum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Galicia * Andalusia, 1981-10-20: Referéndum sobre el Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía * Catalonia, 2006-06-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Cataluña * Andalusia, 2007-02-18: Referéndum sobre la reforma del Estatuto de Autonomía de Andalucía

Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state). They were not about independence from Spain.

Actually, Spain forbids independence clearly in its Constitution, as it is illegal in many other countries, like the USA for example.

It also states that every spaniard has the right to a proper house, and yet here we are...

Doesn't seem to be related to the discussion, does it?

How is that related to the discussion? Are we going to “cancel” the Constitution?

> Those referendums were about constituting the regions as Autonomous Communities (what in USA is an “state”), or about updating their “estatuto de autonomía” (declaration of state)

First, comparing the autonomous communities to states is ludicrous. The legal standing is very different.

> updating their “estatuto de autonomía”

This is technically part of the Spanish constitution, not that it matters because they're never uphold.

According to United Nations there is the right of self determination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-determination This should take precedence over national law as it is the international community who decides what in the end is a country.

But in this case there was not enough international support as more countries (especially in Europe) didn't want to ignite their local independence movements.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41610863

Note the right for self-determination was defined as such for the colonies. Catalonia has never been a colony.

Now, try to secede from the USA and see what happens. Almost all countries have in their Constitutions provisions against secession.

The right does not refer specifically to being a colony. There are many examples of countries which seceded which were not a colony.

The Catalans still have a national day to remember how they were defeated by the Spanish armies and lost their institutions and laws. This will remind them at least yearly that they were once independent.

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day_of_Catalonia

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Barcelona_(1713–1714)

And it is not like there are no secession movements in the USA:

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_secession_movements

- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partition_and_secession_in_Cal...

Although I agree the case to be independent must be really strong in the USA for it to work and won't happen soon.

And see cases like Taiwan which are still in limbo.

In the end it is about acceptance by the international community which will decide what is a country and what not.

Catalans didn’t lose anything, they were part of the Kingdom of Aragon (a part of the Kingdom of Spain), and when Charles II died without heir, there was a civil war against two European families: Bourbon & Habsburg. Castile nobles chose Bourbon while Aragon ones chose Habsburg.

The war was not because of some “state rights” or whatever you’d like to say, it was a fight for the Spanish Crown between two European Royal Families. If Aragon nobles chose with such bad luck that they were in the losing side, that’s Human History.

I said they lost their laws and institutions as it is mentioned on the linked wiki page. It is a big deal to them as is clear how they present it in the museum of Catalonia in Barcelona and how big they remember this day every year. They want to be more in control of their own rules and destiny and that fight is still alive.

The question is if this is the majority or a loud minority. But without a proper referendum we will never know exactly. But how they vote in regional elections seem to be that most are more separatist.

https://euobserver.com/opinion/152009

That's from 2021. the legality isn't in question, what was said was specifically about taxes.

An opinion piece written by an unknown freelance journalist.

Here there are some better sources: [1]

1: https://datosmacro.expansion.com/estado/presupuestos/espana-...

2: https://www.rtve.es/noticias/20211013/presupuestos-inversion...

If you're going to provide sources, read them first please:

(1) lists "Cataluña" as the first in revenue

(2) doesn't mention revenue at all, but transfers back to the region.

> Old article.

That doesn't make it inaccurate. It's also still true according to Spains own budget so, I don't understand the point.

> Please, be advised that the push for independence referendum in 2017 was illegal, as the autonomous communities can’t organize referendums (as per the Spanish Constitution).

This has no relevance to the discussion.

> Note that the nationalists have made no proposal for a Constitutional change in that way.

And this is actually a lie. They did, they compromised to something that could be passed, it got approved, and then it was completely ignored anyway.

That’s not true. The Community of Madrid gives more money to the central government than Catalonia.

> especially in a country like Spain.

especially while Spain continues to waste money on entertainment consisting of animal cruelty

My understanding is that bullfighting is still quite profitable.

Mostly because it's heavily subsidized for political reasons

"Nothing that we pay for with our taxes provides a monetary return."

What? Roads, schools, subsidised healthcare. Even the next sentence is a non-sequitur. You're talking crap.

Education or healthcare provide returns which are not directly monetary.

They provide a monetary return.

Could you prove this? Specially education. It seems to me that educated communities bring investments of sectors that need some specific skills.

My father was on sick leave for six months waiting for surgery. When he finally reached the start of the queue and got the operation he was back at work the week after, again becoming a taxpayer. Of course it pays to have working healthcare. And it even pays more to have a healthcare system which gets more people back to work as quick as possible. That's so short from "directly monetary" that I don't see the difference.

Ok, a more charitative reading of the parent: it is (badly) referring to the idea that public services are not a bad idea just because they operate at a loss, due to their positive externalities. E.g. a road is a “bad investment” if you only look at direct profit (which is 0 if you dont set up a toll).

Obviously they do provide value and that value can often be defined as indirect monetary return. There’s also value for the country that is not easy to monetize in money terms, such as more education helping voters be less manipulable.

I'd argue that if a language needs to be subsidized its going to die off anyway. But whatever money has been spent on dumber things.

By this train of logic, Greece should bulldoze the Acropolis and turn it into a hotel.

The Acropolis benefits the nation of Greece significantly. If this is the reductio, I guess the point stands.

It would make a great munitions warehouse.

> Another language that is kept in life support with the taxes of all the citizens of the country for no clear benefit to the country as a whole.

Just because you don't see the benefit of the language and culture of a distinct region being maintained by its own people, doesn't mean there isn't any.

The world would certainly be worse off if we lost all the diversity in it because people only see things in terms of investment/gain but are blind to the richness of allowing people to maintain their heritage.

Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when aomeone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain. Additionally Catalonia, where they speak Catalan, has been trying to separate from Spain. If anything, these languages are not in "life support" at the cost of all the citizens of the nation, they are actually paying more taxes due to being a part of said nation and have all the right to keep their language- especially so given the history of the region when it comes to their treatment by "the country as a whole".

> Besides which the only part of the article that mentions taxes is when someone mentioned Andorra being an independent nation and paying less taxes to be autonomous than the people of Val d'Aran pay to Spain.

Nitpicking: Andorra doesn't "pay tax to be autonomous" to Spain, nor to France for that matters. Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278). It's a tiny country but it's a sovereign country. It has its own parliament and its official language (which is neither spanish nor french but catalan).

Andorrans pay less taxes because Andorra is autonomous.

Thank you for clarifying. English is my second language and grammar is not my strong skill.

> Andorra is the oldest country in Europe whose borders haven't changed since it was created (1278)

San Marino is older, but I'm not sure if its borders have changed.

Catalonia hasn’t been trying to separate from Spain. Some Catalans have been trying to separate from Spain.

In the las regional elections party with the most votes was a non-independence party: Ciutadans.

That is patently false. In the last election https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Catalan_regional_election , Ciutadans got just 5.6% of the vote, and, quoting Wikipedia,

> Pro-independence parties gained a majority of the votes for the first time in an election and increased their parliamentary majority

You might be thinking about the 2017 election, but even then, the fact that Ciutadans had the most votes had to do with the pro-independence parties being split.

Oh I thought the last elections were in 2017! I totally forgot out the next ones!

Are you lying on purpose? Or just ill-informed?

In the last election, the parties with the most votes were PSC (23,04%), ERC(21,3%) and JxCat (20,04%). PSC is unionist, where ERC and JxCat are separatist. Ciutadans (radically unionist) merely got 5,57% of the votes.

You can check the results at https://www.lavanguardia.com/elecciones/autonomicas-cataluna... or https://resultados.elpais.com/elecciones/2021/autonomicas/09...

Maybe look on that as compensation for decades of suppression by the central government?

With such chauvinistic attitude there is "no clear benefit" for tourists to visit Spain and leave money, that adds to taxes.

There is a Georgian saying for this type of behaviour: do not disgrace your whole nation(with your personal arrogant attitude).

Then I suppose the planet should just switch en masse to English or Mandarin...you know, for beneficial "efficiency" because that is the sole purpose of human existence.

This but unironically. Languages are tools for communication. If you want the best future for your children, focus on giving them access to the most widespread languages with the broadest and deepest literary cultures.

There are very few languages without depth of tradition, either/and oral or written. And your premise is predicated on "the best future" being an objective standard that all people seek, which is by and large, not the case.

I don't disagree with your position in the abstract, but I think its a little too rigid for a world growing both increasingly "small" and contactable in all spaces, yet parochial in terms of people wanting to hold onto their local traditions.

The two can in fact coincide, if everyone realizes that seeking total homogeneity isnt that great of a goal, even if it helps 'scaling'.

I'm curious, are you a native English speaker?

I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think.

There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions.

Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages.

Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.

> you can see in them how people think.

This is something that’s really difficult for folks to comprehend if they don’t speak more than one language but it’s a known phenomenon.

https://qz.com/977356/being-bilingual-makes-you-experience-t...

I don't speak that many languages, but everything you say fits with my household even so, with our three languages (and my acquaintance with other additional languages). Every day my wife and I come across concepts we can't easily express in one language but we can in another. Any my wife says I'm a different person when I switch languages. Well I knew that from before - when my only other active second language was English. Change language, change how you think.

> I'm curious, are you a native English speaker?

English is one of my native languages yes.

> I'm not, but I speak 7 languages. I can tell you they are not just "tools for communication". They are expressions of culture and you can see in them how people think.

> There are things I can say in Spanish that I can't say in German or Japanese, not because of lack of vocabulary (well, that too) but because the concepts just don't translate. And this happens in both directions.

> Even my behavior changes when I'm speaking some languages.

People attribute these differences to language, but I think that's mixing up cause and effect. Learning Japanese has meant learning a whole new culture and new ways of thinking - but those ways of thinking seem to be far more part of the Japanese culture than they are part of the Japanese language - e.g. even when speaking English, Japanese people will generally express those same concepts and modes (quite successfully, even when they're "objectively" untranslatable).

Put it this way: not only would I say that the difference between my behaviour and interaction pattern when talking to a Japanese person in English and a Welsh person in English is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and a Welsh person in Welsh, I'd say that the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English in Wales and talking to a Welsh person in English in Japan (in a culturally Japanese context like a workplace - perhaps not in the tourist spots) is bigger than the difference between talking to a Welsh person in English and talking to a Welsh person in Welsh.

> Edit: it goes without saying but I believe that that diversity of cultures is a great thing we should cherish.

Hmm. I think many cultures have valuable things that are worth preserving, and in some cases valuable things from different cultures are incompatible with each other and so must be preserved separately, and a monoculture carries a risk of catastrophe. But I don't believe in diversity as an end in itself; if there's some cultural practice that is simply bad and has better alternatives, I think it would be crazy to insist on preserving it just for the sake of it.

I have to disagree. It's tempting to reduce a language to just a means of communication, but it's one of the things that make us human.

The language you speak when you grow up forms your cultural identity. I'm not sure which came first, that the language structure formed the culture or that the culture formed the language, but I think there's some truth to the statement.

A language is the key to another culture, and it's the first step to understanding them.

Anyway, braf gweld siaradwr Cymraeg arall yma! (nice to see another Welsh speaker here!)

The question about English was just because many folks who only speak English don't realize how valuable it is (because they can speak it wherever they go), but also don't realize how other people cherish their own "niche" language. I gather you grew up with English and Welsh and hence have a different perspective.

I agree that there's a mix of cause and effect in what I said. Language and culture are intertwined and I don't know how to describe them in a "systems" perspective (how one affects the other). It's just my experience that language has a lot of the culture embedded in it, and even if you didn't grow up in the culture you acquire some of its traits when you speak it.

> But I don't believe in diversity as an end in itself; if there's some cultural practice that is simply bad and has better alternatives, I think it would be crazy to insist on preserving it just for the sake of it.

Having multiple ways of looking at one situation is enriching by itself. This is because it's a case of not knowing what you don't know, so you a priori you should aim to maximize your exposure to different cultures. There are some exceptions (e.g. I don't think it's worth it to keep or spread the Spanish practice of bullfighting), but they make a small part of what the world's cultures can bring us.

> Languages are tools for communication.

Not really. Or, they are, but that's not their primary purpose. (When we need to communicate precisely we use highly specialized technical jargon or math, not natural human languages.)

Historically, those taxes had been used to pay for wars and other acts that were used to spread Castillian in regions it was not spoken. Both in the Peninsula and South America.

Nowadays, taxpayers money funds institutions that preserve and promote Castillian.

Maybe don’t try to kill languages and life support won’t be needed.

Also, it makes more sense to spend in preserving something fragile than to promote something already popular and strong.

I am inclined to think it is not the taxpayers money that you are after

A classic of Spanish nationalism: produce laws/actions that create obstacles in the use of other languages, leading to Spanish being overwhelmingly used. Then those asymmetries in use are utilized to justify other laws that further deepen the inequality.

I think if Spain had taken a more Swiss approach towards federalization and language, it would be a much stronger nation. A lot of regional tension is a result of the central government blocking or overriding local decisions and political parties using non-Castillian identity as a scapegoat.

I wholeheartedly agree with you!

Unfortunately, most don't see it that way. All those partisan attitudes make me sad.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com