I maintain that we in Israel are still a very normal, western type society, if you take all these rather extreme circumstances into consideration (and, in addition, we are getting quite a lot of tech done ;-) )
That, in a way, is also quite telling.
I’m not sure if the definition of democracy is flexible enough to include non-democracies as long as they bring a note to class giving a good reason. If Israel’s situation does really require essentially doing away with democratic norms, it’s somewhat delusional to still afford it that label, as a sort of temporarily-but-forever-slightly-embarrassed-democracy that protects its citizens’ rights as long as it’s convenient to do so.
But I doubt that state is actually necessary. There has just been too much Austrian-style corruption in the last decade not to suspect some of that to be also in play here.
Let’s wait and see how many politicians of the opposition were targeted in these programs. Because that would be the immediate end to any claims of justification.
Edit: and just to be sure: nobody doubts that Israel is far better than the usual comparisons, i. e. its neighbors and China. It’s just because Israel is considered to be among “the good ones” that it gets criticized more readily. Both because the distance b/w expectations and reality is larger than elsewhere, and because criticism among peers is usually more effective than it is among strangers.
... or because "the good ones" have a guilt conscience with regards to Israel, especially the European ones. Nothing better than shaming your victims to wash your conscience.
That's a bit of a stretch, I didn't claim any such exemption, and the state of affairs that you describe is not true either.
The facts described by the article were published by independent newspapers, and are now the subject of an investigation by the State Comptroller. See https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/article-693834
I think what does away with that illusion quickly is the fact that Israel has no civil marriage. In Israel, a Jew cannot marry a Muslim, or a Christian. In the US you can find me someone who is more right-wing than Genghis Khan and yet they probably would still find that surprising. Israel is cosmopolitan, in the way the UAE is, but it is not a secular Western state. It doesn't need to be because not being 'Western' doesn't imply being bad at all.
We are not a state that is governed by clergy, there is a free press and independent courts, there is a competitive political process, therefore your assertion that we are not a 'secular western state' isn't true either.
It is not an exclusively secular state, like France; but other, more mixed models do exist, in practice.
This is not entirely true.
Over the last twenty years it was no more then couple of years when ultra-orthodox weren't the part of the ruling coalition.
And they were always very explicit about controlling citizenship, marriage, religion and finance.
I've been to Israel a bunch of times. I've also been to Palestine and Lebanon. Israel isn't a "secular western state." For one, Israel does not have a written constitution, even though according to the Proclamation of Independence a constituent assembly should have prepared a constitution by October 1, 1948. That delay in the preparation of a constitution resulted primarily from problems that emerged against the background of the alleged clash between a secular constitution and the Halacha (the Jewish religious law).
So even from a legal perspective, Israel can't decide whether it's a secular or religious state.
Wow that's an insane opinion.
You're operating a city size ghetto and illegally annexing a part of another country.
I guess in Israel that's normal!
That's not to say everything is perfect, no country is. But in perspective of everyone's actions in the region I support Israel overall.
I don't want to get into a political flamewar, just wanted to offer my support. I disagree with the premise of many opinions here about Israel.
Note that I'm not talking about people that are talking objectively about this specific event, I'm talking about the comments calling Israel an apartheid state, marriage, etc.
https://jcpa.org/article/btselem-less-reliability-credibilit...
https://www.jpost.com/opinion/btselems-lies-468488
I didn't want to get into this like I said, but imo if the left focused more on scolding Palestine and less on Israel we'd be better off.
Sources on what? What did you disagree with?
> I'm open to the idea that B'Tselem are unreliable
You linked an article from organization B'Tselem claiming Israel is an Apartheid state.
I dont like the "angle of their post" to use your words.
> note they're essentially from a rival Israeli political outlook
Yes, my that's my point. B'Tselem is a political organization, simply linking to their political rant is not helpful. Unless you want to debate out what you found so convincing that B'Tselem said that PROVES Israel is an "apartheid" state this conversation is going nowhere. I cannot prove a negative. You are insuating Israel is an apartheid state, it's a bold claim with no facts. You have to have concrete reasoning to assert so, I don't have to scrum up some "international sourced" articles to shoot down propaganda from B'Tselem.
Whatever emotions you perceived me to have were in your head.
Possibly it was the emphasis on "proves", which was simply an emphasis with the goal of highlighting you need to prove Israel is an apartheid state if you claim as such.