Ask HN: Why the $200 Overhead on Dell XPS Laptops with Linux? | Hacker News Reader

Ask HN: Why the $200 Overhead on Dell XPS Laptops with Linux?

74 pointsMikeBVaughn102 comments

I'm not complaining, I'm just genuinely curious. When speccing out an XPS 13 Developer Edition, switching the OS from Windows to Linux bumps the price up by $200. Is it subsidizing whatever work had to go into validating that the OS works as expected on that model?

View on HN

More than likely, because switching to Linux also drops all the "paid pre-installed windows software" (companies paying Dell to pre-install their software) then this jump in price would give a hint as to how much Dell receives in payment for pre-installing all those windows extras.

What is the software that gets installed and what does it do?

Do they actually show ads?

All of that junk like Norton/MCafee/Cyberlink/Shortcuts to websites. The Norton/MCafee crap gives you a 1 year 'complimentary' subscription. Many uneducated users will then go and resubscribe to that garbage AV.

Not generally, no.

Most of the time, it's software that goads you into a subscription after your 30-day trial, like anti-virus packages or HP's ink subscription.

Or, for that matter, Microsoft Office.

I think it’s mostly junk like mcafee antivirus. Not strictly an ad but it’ll eventually nag you for money at some point.

Norton 360, which if memory serves has been a stalwart of the preinstall game now installs an opt-in Cryptominer. https://krebsonsecurity.com/2022/01/norton-360-now-comes-wit...

Further evidence that crypto is truly a cancer on software.

> Further evidence that crypto is truly a cancer on software.

you might want to correct "crypto" with "cryptocurrency", at least

Realistically that ship has sailed. It's like "GNU/Linux".

> truly a cancer on software.

Possibly crypto, definitely a lot of AV software.

Further evidence that free antivirus tools are malware.

If Norton 360 installed Folding@home, would you call F@H a "cancer"? No, you wouldn't. The true cancer here is pre-installed antivirus software such as Norton.

In this scenario, would Norton be taking a 15% cut?

Yes, what if they did? In fact what if they resold 100% of the F@H compute power to buyers?

That argument doesn't lead where you want it to go. It's the antivirus companies that are rubbish.

Then it wouldn't be F@H, you'd be part of Norton's botnet. It's not just the AV companies, uTorrent had a controversy around the same thing. All about making a quick buck and crypto is enabling it by getting people to buy in to what is essentially a botnet

F@H is using the energy for something useful. I don't view the creation of a digital speculative asset as useful in the same way I view scientific research (something terribly underfunded as-is)

Crypto is a cancer even when users voluntarily participate, but that's a separate discussion. It's incredibly inefficient and I distrust anyone downplaying the severity of fragmented commerce networks that individually use more energy than entire countries with millions of fungible flesh and blood humans.

> Further evidence that crypto is truly a cancer on software.

Yes, on the bastion of healthy software that is...third party antivirus(!?)

Everything from antivirus to cloud backups to photo editors. Basically just trial editions of various software.

Lenovo actually used to ship adware/malware that actually broke TLS in order to inject ads onto webpages.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superfish#Lenovo_security_inci...

Ouch.

For a "just works out of the box" experience, this is why I never went back to Windows after switching to Mac. I did actually wipe a Windows pre-install once to install Ubuntu, but that took forever to setup and fix drivers regularly.

A quick search for a default Dell/Windows desktop shows Spotify, Netflix, PicsArt, and there's a couplefew more in the tray, not to mention the start menu, which certainly has more who probably got a bit of a discount on their placement fees.

https://cdn.arstechnica.net/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/DSC00... https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/22894952/t...

The pre-installed software is the ad. The software manufacturer hopes that consumers will buy their subscription or full priced software.

After all, people believe they need antivirus software to stay safe (the fact antivirus software can be worse than the virus doesn’t change people beliefs) so why not buy the one that’s already installed on their PC?

Or another way of looking at it, Google pays Apple billions each year to make Google the default search engine on iOS, because Google recognises the power of defaults i.e. people are lazy and will use/buy whatever’s in front of them to avoid doing any work looking for alternatives.

I once set up a new Dell system, and it took something like 30 minutes to actually start and get to the desktop, and then a huge amount of time afterwards answering "yes I for really really real don't want your stupid demo" to a dozen pop-ups, and then another hour of uninstalling all the crap it had.

I cannot imagine anyone non-technical having to go through that and deal with BS like daily pop-ups "reminding" you to renew your subscription because "your PC is not protected" and so on.

It's honestly asinine, but hey, just buy a Mac or a Linux Dell I guess.

When I bought a laptop in 2012, the first thing I did was wipe the drive and install Windows from scratch.

If I were to do that today, I'd do the same thing.

Yes, this.

I knew a "business development" guy who specialized in these deals.

Unless something has changed drastically in this space, Dell isn't going anywhere near $200 plus the cost of a Windows license on every machine they sell.

I'm guessing they have higher return rates and higher support calls from people selecting the Linux option who don't fully understand what they're doing. If the Linux option reduced the price, there would be scores of people clicking it just to save a few bucks without understanding the consequences.

You have to keep in mind that technically competent people ordering laptops are actually a minority.

I imagine companies with business accounts also receive discounts on the "developer" machines in question anyways, so it's really just an incentive to prevent the extra support overhead.

Another point is the packaging and documentation, got a Linux Server in the mid 2000s came with Red Hat with a lot of nice install disks, support line, etc. Not just the distro dicks in RH's packaging, so that does add to the cost.

I'm sure they might have done a bunch of testing and tweaking to ensure compatibility upon first boot as well.

Though from my standpoint I'd rather know of a distro's quirks with a particular computer than be surprised when I decide to use something different down the line.

Does Dell offer a "clean" version of Windows for the extra price? I can come up with competing reasons for why they would/wouldn't do this.

This might be an option for business or enterprise versions; I know our company buys everything from Dell so we have a good relationship, and I've seen discussions of being able to send a system image to Dell for them to put onto laptops that you order.

If you're not spending a huge amount on laptops, though, I can't imagine this being an option they want to offer.

Larger enterprises have their own images and would never put a preinstall on a users' desktop.

Maybe if you order the factory restore disks after the fact.

A friend of mine worked with systems like this - and this was decades ago - said the pre-installed deals were very lucrative. decades ago it was > $50/machine

Nowadays there's also the automated data-collection, remote telemetry and troubleshooting, "know your customer", etc.

That said, the remote lenovo stuff is a whole different level

It is possible that it is strategic, to discourage customers from purchasing a Linux laptop. This could be for various reasons, such as:

1) Their production pipeline is optimized for windows, so Linux is a deviation requiring some manual intervention that costs extra.

2) Deals with Microsoft, wherein MS incentivizes them Dell based on some criteria, including but not limited to units sold. This is similar to car dealerships with quotas.

3) As others have noted, 3rd Party crapware deals for putting preinstalled crapware on Windows laptops. Fewer such opportunities exist for Linux laptops

On the other hand, the fact that Dell offers a linux option is still helpful to users even if it's overpriced, since it signals that the hardware will likely be compatible if you go the self-install route. Then Dell gets to sell windows laptops to linux users with a wink and a nod and both parties benefit financially

Note that Dell uses different hardware inside machines between the Windows and Linux SKUs for the same model (mostly: wifi and bluetooth, but occasionally other things).

Makes me wonder: If Dell sold a Linux laptop for cheaper, what would happen? Would a lot of people return it? Call up customer support confused?

A bit off-topic, but if that's the case, then why don't you just buy the Windows version, then wipe the disk and install Linux on it. You effectively save yourself $200.

Is there something I'm missing? Does selecting the developer version use different hardware that has better Linux support?

the kaby lake xps 13 linux skus had a different wifi card that was more reliable on linux (and arguably in general). could be some other subtle differences like that. to me it's easily worth $200 to not deal with those sorts of issues.

also, I believe they sometimes don't offer the lowest tier windows hardware with linux at all.

Except that a wifi card costs $20.

Exactly. I feel like the costs of swapping out such components for better ones likely wouldn't exceed $200.

Maybe pwg is right and the discounted price with Windows is due to the paid pre-installed software. But that still leaves the customer with complete freedom to install something else on it.

Depends how much you value your time, and how many laptops you’re buying.

Some people want their laptop to work out of the box, and will happily pay $200 to ensure they get a HW/SW combo that’s been validated to work together by the manufacturer.

If you’re a company buying 10+ laptops, paying an extra $200 per laptop is probably cheaper than the faff of separately finding and acquiring wifi cards, then finding the time to swap them all.

the card itself does, but how do you value the time you spend on research and doing the replacement? I bought the windows version of that laptop when I was a student, and replaced the card myself. that made sense then, but if I bought it today to get work done, I'd gladly spend $200 extra to have it ready to go out of the box and not think about it. just my two cents, feel free to do whatever works for you.

To know that Intel is one of the best for Linux? I kinda have known this for years. To find online and buy one? Maybe 15 minutes. To replace? 10 minutes. I do such things without thinking. You can send me your laptops along with a 200 per laptop.

Replacing the Killer WiFi card with an $40 Intel one is the first thing I do to every Dell laptop I get.

Yep, totally. I had some issues with Bluetooth coexistence on my Realtek WiFi card, tried installing various different drivers but nothing fixed it. Replaced it with an Intel one and it worked flawlessly.

All, this is a glitch and not intended (as you would expect our Linux based systems are less expensive than our comparable Windows configurations). The team is working to correct this. Thanks for flagging it!

Barton George, Dell

Thank you for the info; I appreciate the transparency!

and I appreciate the heads up :)

This is surprising to me because it wasn't that long ago (~3-4 years) that I bought an XPS developer edition and it was $100 cheaper than the windows version. At the time, I assumed that was just the cost of the windows license.

Same here

Just ran into this buying a laptop! I bought the Windows one, nuked it, and had Ubuntu installed in like 15 minutes :D

Yeah I was kinda wondering, what's their game plan here? Hope that people don't notice the price difference and DIY it? Might just be what someone else said, this is what Dell is not being paid to pre-install whatever

Precisely, Dell does not care and knows that people using Linux mostly likely know how to install it, so why not get the $200 from McAfee?

If you install it yourself then presumably Dell is not responsible for any compatibility/quality issues.

When you work at a big company and put a request in for a laptop with Linux, then IT will just order you that Linux version of it - no one cares that there's $200 to be saved there by reinstalling the OS. IT doesn't have the time nor the need to do that - they will just order the Linux version and be done.

I'd think IT would be re-imaging the laptop from a common image before giving it to the user, so they'd still be better off getting the Windows laptop and wiping it.

Maybe, but you might be overestimating certain IT departments. At my wife's work everyone uses windows laptops, but her team needed Macs for some technical reason, so they all got brand new Macs that IT basically refused to support, they haven't been preconfigured or anything. I feel like if she asked for a Linux laptop they would just buy her one of these and that would be it. If it breaks then Dell can deal with it.

I did this with a "Fujitsu-Siemens Scaleo Windows Home Server" some 14 years ago and managed to get the licence fee ($60) back from Microsoft after sending them a bunch of stickers, manuals and assorted included Windows-related guff. I had to hammer them a bit but after a letter or three they gave in. I don't know where you live but if it is somewhere within the EU it could be worth trying this. I have no idea whether such an attempt could succeed in the USA without taking them to some court or other.

It can be hard. Related story: https://fsfe.org/news/2021/news-20210302-01.html

Just take advantage of the Windows-environment subsidies. Save yourself a few bucks.

Buy the system with the Windows OS. Back up the OS to a USB thumb drive and store it away carefully. You may need that to reinstall Windows if you want to sell the machine off a year or two later.

Wipe the hard drive completely by installing a new partition table. Install your own favorite Linux distro. Almost invariably, the Linux distro that could come with that machine, is a distro that you wouldn't normally use.

I was able to install Windows onto a laptop that had been running Ubuntu only for years without any trouble using just a Windows installer USB. You don't need to save the original image, especially given it's full of crapware.

> Is it subsidizing whatever work had to go into validating that the OS works as expected on that model?

I think you nailed it. Free as in freedom, not free beer.

Linux might be rare enough that they only make Windows machines and then have someone pull one out of the box put Linux on it if requested.

It’s like why alcohol free beer costs almost same in NZ - because they have to take out alcohol!

Sure, but you wouldn't pay any alcohol taxes, and the alcohol that's taken out can be used elsewhere. So production costs really ought to be lower. Volume might be lower too though.

That's why I find the power of ads and marketing truly fearsome. Why buy alcohol free alcoholic beverages?

If you like the taste but don't want the negative parts, or if you don't want alcohol but want to feel "included" ( e.g. muslims, recovering alcoholics or just people who don't like getting "buzzed").

Included?

If you've made the choice to not drink, is the next logical step to buy a non-alcoholic alcoholic beverage?

Seems a bit more than silly.

If you're with a group of people who drink alcoholic beverages, and you want to fit it, a non-alcoholic beer is probably better than a juice.

Also works if you had too many, but still wanna drink beer.

I know alcohol and logic doesn't mix.

It does taste nice and goes well with many foods.

When Lithuania banned sales on Sunday after 3PM the sales of it skyrocketed. IIRC NZ grown 100% lately too. Many people choose it when they drive.

I like my 9% IPA's but when I have to drive or there's bbq party middle of the day I'll go for low alcohol ones.

Alcohol-free beers have their alcohol removed through vacuum distillation - the only reason it's not more expensive than beer is probably because there is no alcohol taxation on the product.

Alcohol is super expensive in NZ, exactly due to alcohol tax.

Right now 12pack of 330ml alcohol free Heineken goes for $23 NZD while alcoholic one is $22.

I remember paying €5 ($8 NZD) for 20pack or so of cheap stuff in Netherlands.

Cost to manufacture is negligible, really. Probably smallest part when looking at bottling and distribution.

relevant: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundling_of_Microsoft_Windows

https://marc.merlins.org/linux/refundday/

One thing to note is that using Arch I haven't had any issues with hardware on any computer I've tried, and usually you can find a comparable Acer or MSI with much better specs for significantly less. I usually don't see much benefit with purchasing overpriced hardware.

Every laptop is a linux laptop if you stay away from nvidia and get last year's hardware.

honestly since 20.04 ubuntu or so, nvidia works pretty well on linux (other than battery life on laptops which is still not good).

If all you need is a framebuffer, nvidia is fine. However I regularly run into 3d applications that either only run (either at all, or without significant artifacts) with nouveau or only run with the nvidia binary drivers. I reboot fairly regularly just to switch between the two.

huh, that hasn't been my experience at all. I don't play a ton of demanding games, but pretty much everything I have played (on 1440p monitor, RTX 2060) is capable of hitting framecaps.

Maybe my card is to old? 1050Ti

I'd expect that to be pretty good at 1080p. No idea what's going wrong.

1200p, but I don't run anything demanding. Some games lock-up with binary drivers, others crash nouveau and compositing window-managers have different artifiacts with either oen.

Again, no issues on Arch. People running other distros may have issues due to slower package and kernel updates.

btw

The advantage with XPS is not the price, but the premium quality.

In my opinion XPS is about size and to an extent performance, but not better (build) quality. In my experience both the Latitude and Precision series have had fewer hardware issues despite being more prevalent, where only part of the explanation is that XPS-es are used more often by people who also travel more.

I think we have different definitions of build quality. When I said build quality I meant it as a premium Device feel: quality materials, good keyboard and trackpad, looks nice.

From the context it sounds like your definition of build quality is reliability and durability, which I would be surprised to hear their business grade laptops are better at.

If you read what the page and price says you'll see that there is a couple of offers available now that reduced the windows price with ~260 USD.

"Price Includes $250 off through Dell Small Business. Special Offer"

On the Dell website, you can check out their workstations and see some of the price differences. For example, choose the Precision line. Then for any computer that has a "show all choices" when it lists the operating system, choose the customize option and you can see the prices for all the OS options they give. I randomly chose an i5 desktop and from Windows 10 Pro switching to Ubuntu 20.04 reduces the price by $75, but switching to Red Hat increases the price by $70.

My guess is they know Linux loyalists or newbs will just say ok and pay the money. The rest of the users get it with windows and load their own. It's just kind of a stupidity tax, because they can. I doubt it's because they have to any extra cost to their process.

And the fingerprint scanner won't even work and power management will be last class

I will go to great lengths to avoid funding Microsoft or Apple even if it costs me money. That and It's a way for me to signal interest in Linux support to a hardware vendor (whatever that's worth).

Could it just be that Linux Dell XPS buyers are less price sensitive? There's and underlying assumption in the question that increased Dell pricing is justified by increased Dell expenditure.

Could it just be that Linux Dell XPS buyers are less price sensitive? There's an underlying assumption in the question that increased Dell pricing is justified by increased Dell expenditure.

Because you are more likely to be a professional software engineer with a whopping salary and lower price sensitivity :)

Or am I too cynical about our dear colleagues in marketing?

Perhaps they need to pay extra for Linux IT people which they only cover if your original purchase is a Linux install (plus other reasons given in thread)

Any differences in hardware between the normal and developer editon? Could you just wipe the Windows and install Linux over.

Dell is in bed with Microsoft and needs to do everything they can to make you think twice about your OS

And also, why not change the Windows button symbol?

It is because linux is superior!

Reply on news.ycombinator.com