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Comment by PaulDavisThe1st | Hacker News Reader

I think more native american restaurants would be wonderful. But my eyebrows lift at the idea of "native american cuisine". We're talking about dozens of distinct cultures that covered the entire continent, from the damp, mild ocean adjacent pacific NW to the deserts of the southwest to the grasslands of the midwest to the forests of the east and north east (and so, so much more). Nobody would seriously suggest that there's any possibility of a unified food culture across this range.

So, let regional native american restaurants bloom!

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The terms "Chinese food" and "Indian food" are similarly reductive/broad. They represent in the US a specific a new cuisine, a kind of curated fusion (eg chicken tikka masala). If your focus is on understanding the food of a place and people and how those things relate, this is a bad thing probably.

As the market grows it kind of gets undone - this is most obvious in America with maybe Japanese restaurants? Sushi, ramen, bbq are often entirely different restaurants. Except that, as the fusion represents a new cuisine, it can stick around on its own

Ramen is a fairly modern invention that was based around Chinese recipes with American wheat post-war. Its hard to call it a Japanese native food, but that's what we're going with.

Sounds like you know more than I do on this but wouldn't there be lots of soba analogs in japan already?

I may be mistaken, but Ramen (as noodles in broth with toppings) strikes me as a fairly obvious dish once you have a kind of noodle and broth.

Soba is made of buckwheat so its really an very different type of dish, but Ramen used to be just called "Chinese Soba", since wheat based noodles are very different from rice or buckwheat.

Ramen specifically uses wheat noodles. "Modern Japanese Ramen" took Chinese recipes that used wheat noddles and used them to great effect during the American occupation with extremely cheap wheat prices (compared to other choice). You can be damn sure without cheap American wheat, Ramen would have stayed as Chinese Soba

It's one of those things that make people uncomfortable because history is messy.

"American wheat" is inconsequential. Ramen is the Japanese word for la mian which means pulled noodles.

So your history lesson isn't uncomfortable but wrong.

Ramen (and Japanese-style breads, among other dishes) were popularized during and after the American occupation, in which American wheat flooded the Japanese market in unprecedented quantities.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_in_the_Occupation_of_Japa...

The parent says that "ramen" would not have existed if it was not for America. That is wrong, it already existed.

He is referring to the term "Sh*** Soba", which is impolite to utter in modern Japanese (chuka soba is fine).

Fancy French restaurant cooking is a 19th century phenomenon. American cuisine was big on aspics in the 1940s.

Ramen is newer, but definitely is something that the Japanese care about and identify with.

I’m Indian and don’t see any problems with all Indian being mushed together into a single place. Honestly that’s par for course even in india, pretty much most restaurants label themselves as “multi cuisine” and make 5 different genres of Indian and fusion food. The question is if they’re still true to heart and make it taste good.

Not at all. In India, a Punjabi restaurant won't sell dosas and vice versa. Cuisines are incredibly local and the recipes change wildly depending on where you eat.

The only exception is 'mom and pops veg restaurant' where the dishes are a Hodge podge of everything they can make. But these 'vanilla' dishes are usually there to pander to the customer and subpar. Their best dishes are usually the local speciality.

Another exception is national chains like Haldirams, which make 'mediocre everything' and should not be a yardstick for anything indian. (Nothing against haldirams. Their Santra barfi is the best in the world as long as you buy it in the original nagpur location. They also run a few one-off speciality restaurants in Nagpur, which are quite good. But their national chain is meh)

The sub-cuizinization of Indian food is already happening in the US. Godavari is an exclusively Udipi chain. Annapurna? in SJ and Kathakali in Seattle are top tier maharashtrian and Keralite restaurants. You now have Kathi and chat places with 1 page menus and cuisines from neighboring countries (Bangladeshi, Nepali, Srilankan) are finally being recognized as distinct.

As a person for whom food is primary hobby, the idea that Indian or Chinese food gets put under one umbrella makes me rather annoyed. It does a disservice to the culture of civilizational behemoths.

Do you have a good resource for finding localized-Indian food in the bay area?

Assuming you're in tech, just ask any Indian coworker. They probably know the best ones. Be clear in wanting to eat non-white-people Indian food and specify the region. Usually finding an Indian from that region is ideal.

Truth is, that you probably want to get invited to an Indian potluck. Apart from Punjabi and street food, most other Indian cuisines do not have a well developed restaurant culture. So, the most authentic food is often home style cooking. With no offense to 2nd generation Indian-Americans, it is the 1st generation immigrants who will recreate their regional cuisine most faithfully.

I don't know many bay area restaurants, since I don't reside there. I've visited once, that's it.

Some regional cuisines to check out:

* Maharashtrian / Mumbai - The Vadapav & Misal are iconic, but there is a lot more to this. Stir fried legumes (matki) is another personal favorite.

* Konkan - Saltwater seafood heavy. My favorite are the coconut marinated crustacean preparations. Bombil (snakefish) is my comfort food, but near impossible to source in the US.

* Indo-chinese - Inchin's Bamboo Garden is a reliable chain. Really interesting cultural exchange. Chili Paneer, Chicken Machurian and Szechuan (that is the cultural correct & technically incorrect spelling for Sichuan) rice go great together.

* Chaat - An explosion of flavors. Every region does it differently, but Mumbai (Bombay) is the only one that does it right. Usually a combination of heterogeneously mixed chutneys and textures. Sweet with Spicy. Yogurty and crispy. The most delightful of Indian cuisines. (sorry Delhi, you're second. Some other places put carrot in their chat, and I hope those heathens marry people who order their steak well done)

* Kerala / Malabar - Parotta, Appam and goat curries are my favorite. Chili Beef is probably India's most iconic beef dish.

* Mughlai - Not Punjabi. Real Mughlai food takes a clay oven and charcoal. It also takes a lot of human effort and time. Most Indian places in the US cut corners. A perfect Biryani is epitomizes this cuisine, but finding the right Biryani place is an active challenge. Kababs and grilled tikka are their most visible, but a rabdi-shahi tukda is the most opulent version of a tres-leches cake that you can imagine. (sort of)

* Nepali - Not Indian, but I LOVE their momos (dumplings). Ironically, Nepali restaurant food is the closest thing to authentic homestyle food I've had in the US. They seem to care less about making the traditional british-american dishes and their cooking seems more rooted in how 'mom used to make it'.

This only starches the surface of the many cuisines that India has to offer. But, it's an HN comment not a blog post. (I just got an idea for a blog post series )

so I agree with you on the Punjabi food, but there's some commonalities that I've found people enjoy between different regions of south asia. Friends from Pakistan that had never been to a Sri Lankan restaurant before very much enjoyed the dosa places we went to, and the authentic spicy (4 out of 5 on a spicy level?) dosa fillings were similar in many ways to some of the spicier pakistani foods...

Oh for sure.

The core culinary approach and ethos is identical across the subcontinent. I'd say it extends as far as Eastern Africa, Bhutan, Malaysia and Thailand. (not Vietnam tho)

Could you elaborate further on this? I’m curious what commonalities you find in the cuisines of these areas.

It is the core approach to cooking. I would contrast it with Latin (French, Spanish, Italian) cooking.

The idea with Latin cooking, is to get the highest quality ingredients that go together really well. It is about a small set of ingredients that play-off-of each other to highlight the strengths of each. The musical analogy, would be a 3 piece band, where you can hear every instrument.

Indian cooking is about a feeling of oneness, derived from the combination of many. 30 different ingredients come together to become 1 flavor that is its own thing. The individual disappears in favor of the creation of a new whole. The musical analogy here, would be a big orchestral composition. You never pick out the individual instruments. Yet, it evokes a single emotion and a singular atmosphere. Indian & similar cooking starts with incredibly complex base ingredients. My family's chilli powder recipe contains 8 different types of chillies and a total of 37 ingredients. This powder goes on to become 1 of a dozen spices that form the flavor base of the final dish. The whole doesn't taste of the ingredients, by design. Xiaoxing wine or Sambal Olek are similar complex base ingredients in the other cultures I mention.

You have to approach each style from a completely different mental state. Having started cooking only once I moved to the US, I became a pretty good western cook, but I could never figure out how to cook Indian food. It is only after about 4 years, that I realized that you can't approach Indian cooking from a western perspective. I now understand why my mom used vague instructions and cues instead of a rigid recipe. I am still a much better western cook than an Indian one, but that's fine cuz I just get my Indian friends here to cook their mom's recipes for me.

Are you saying that the commonality between the cuisine is the level of heat in the dish? That's like saying Irish food is as spicy as Swedish food so they are pretty similar.

Never said that. See other comment above you for clarification.

I’m talking about the reality in a place like Chennai India. Among restaurants that serve Indian food here the majority label themselves “multi cuisine” meaning you will find south, north and indo Chinese dishes in all of them. They’re definitely not bad. I wouldn’t necessarily go there for the best rumali roti in town but they’re good stuff anyway.

Other than Punjabi and chaat no other Indian sub cuisine gets too many special restaurants at least here.

I’m not saying that this is the best way. I prefer specialized restaurants as well, but Foreign folk get introduced to ethnic food in steps and step 1 is a compression of an entire nations diversity into a single menu. Ones only hope is they do it a decent service. This will naturally let people pursue specialized cuisines from there as is happening with Chinese cuisine in most big metropoles in the US and I’m sure will happen with Indian over time as well.

I wouldn't consider the Japanese analog a great one because sushi, ramen, and yakiniku are not particularly regional specialties.

Regional ramens certainly exist, though probably not the way you would encounter it in the US.

Some of the ramen restaurants I've been to in the US do feature different regional ramens.

The most popular (or one of them anyway) ramen in the US is miso ramen, which is a regional ramen in Japan but not really here, for whatever reason.

Yeah... but a "ramen restaurant" is not in an of itself regional unless it chooses to specialize only in those.

I can imagine NA cuisine being no more unified than Mexican, Tex-Mex, New Mexican, Oaxacan, California Mexican, et. al. are under the category of “Mexican”. I grew up on Tex-Mex and I was dumbfounded at the sight of a wet burrito?? But you learn and grow :) and I’m sure any emergence of NA cuisine would be similar.

There's a lot more shared identity today as a result of colonization and the reservation system, which somewhat extends to things like food. Frybreads are a good example since they come directly from the reservation system and the typical ingredients provided by the government for cheap calories: flour, beans, oil, "cheese", and some form of meat, sugar, etc. Despite the common name, it's a shared culinary heritage for many tribes in the US.

The real issue is that there's been very little widespread systematization of "traditional" indigenous cookery. We've started seeing that over the past few decades through the efforts of people like Lois Frank and many, many others, but it's a process.

Yeah, this is true and interesting, though I think a lot of (especially the high end) focus on Native American foods is on pre-Columbian cuisines.

Btw, If anyone knows any pre-Columbian restaurants for Italian and Indian cuisines, let me know.

> There's a lot more shared identity today as a result of colonization and the reservation system, which somewhat extends to things like food.

Yes and this nearly amorphous identity is a tragedy that needs unbundling. Scratch the surface and none of it makes sense for any single pre-colonial culture on the whole continent.

There are like 300 recognized distinct pre-colonial cultures here at the US federal level, most of which were grandfathered in before a cutoff for the reservation system and additional ones each requiring an act of Congress for recognition, even more at the state level, and even more vying for recognition as they are just noticing and regrouping after ages of separation, in a combination of forced separation or lineage dilution.

I can’t help but think there might be a more subtle resurgence of Native American Cuisine with more “authentic” Mexican food becoming more mainstream outside of coastal California and ethnic enclaves, as well as a renewed interest for Bison meat (20 years ago it was pretty rare).

> There's a lot more shared identity today as a result of colonization and the reservation system, which somewhat extends to things like food. Frybreads are a good example since they come directly from the reservation system and the typical ingredients provided by the government for cheap calories: flour, beans, oil, "cheese", and some form of meat, sugar, etc. Despite the common name, it's a shared culinary heritage for many tribes in the US.

At least this shared identity wasn't built over unmarked graves for children like elsewhere. [0] [1] [2]

[0] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/28/world/canada/kamloops-mas...

[1] https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/07/world/canada/mass-graves-...

[2] https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/24/americas/canada-unmarked-grav...

> At least this shared identity wasn't built over unmarked graves for children like elsewhere.

Don't kid yourself; the American boarding schools for the Native Americans weren't much better than the Canadian ones, were they any better to begin with. In general, I'd be hard-pressed to declare Canada any better or worse in its treatment of indigenous peoples than the US was--they were both pretty appalling.

>At least this shared identity wasn't built over unmarked graves for children like elsewhere.

It was....and not just children's graves, either.

> I grew up on Tex-Mex and I was dumbfounded at the sight of a wet burrito?? But you learn and grow :)

Maybe for you. I, for one, will never accept rice in a burrito.

I remember when asking for “salsa” north of Denver resulted in your eggs being covered in ketchup - and having to get relatives to send me cans of hatch green chilies because pickled jalapeños were the only option in NYC.

Things definitely got better, you can go pretty much anywhere in the US and get real salsa now - thank you taco bell for educating people. Today I can buy hatch green chilis in the ethnic isle of most grocery stores in NYC (and you can always order them from Amazon or Walmart). In the northeast poblano peppers are in all the Mexican-ish dishes - huge upgrade from the pickled jalapeños and very close to the hatch chilies I grew up with. Some of the stuff I get at the taco trucks is even more exotic and really wonderful - I’m a big fan of Oaxacan cheese, wish I had discovered that years ago.

The notion that there’s a common indigenous cuisine from the Americas is of course untenable. But there’s a commonality of cultural experience and history that binds a lot of native people and peoples together in a way that’s important. And may be more important than the particular fare offered at a particular restaurant.

I welcome regional native restaurants too, but I also welcome solidarity among BIPOC and think that deserves celebration as well.

Doesn't the commonality only really go back to the arrival of Europeans in the 1500s and onwards? Everything I read would suggest that before then, the different cultural groupings across north America would not have really seen themselves as particularly connected to each other, certainly not across large distances.

If that's true (and I don't know if it is), then celebrating the commonality doesn't seem quite so obvious a thing to do.

I think how it worked in pre contact times was you ate whatever you could get. Deer, squirrels, nuts, seeds from wild grasses, berries, tender hearts of succulents like agave, and if there was nothing else, the inner bark of pine trees.

The gourmet scene probably didn't exist much before the rise of agriculture.

HIAKAI in New Zealand has done really well taking indigenous (traditionally foraged) Māori ingredients and turning them into a fine dining experience. I'd love to see what a similar take could look like with Native Indian cuisine. https://www.hiakai.co.nz/food

Frankly the idea of discovering the palate of primarily locally foraged cuisine sounds exciting to me. I 100% want to know what talented chefs can do with agave hearts! How did native cuisine incorporate the wide varieties of berries in north america, in terms of color, texture, taste? It sounds like a whole philosophy of food that have no introduction to and I'd be excited to experience it.

Regional, and/or Tribal.

well theyd at least generally share the same selection of ingredients because theyre all in north america. wont be seeing any old world vegetables.

Strangely enough there were tribes that refused to eat the same foodstuff as their neighboring tribes. People are funny about how they differentiate themselves from others.

The Californian Native Americans prided themselves on being fit and not eating fatty foods, subsisting off acorns and wild grasses, where as the Pacific northwestern natives threw fat feasts known as potlatch.

These would be wildly different restaurants.

Distinguishing one's tribe from the surrounding peoples by avoiding certain foods has a long history:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashrut

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