The SNESticle Liberation Project
dataswamp.org
dataswamp.org
I guess that's his response to the liberation project :)
Like, at what point did the industry graduate to, I dunno, C?
Example: https://github.com/mirror/x264/blob/master/common/x86/dct-64...
This was also roughly the point when consoles switched from "rebooting into" games (i.e. console SDKs being library exokernels that games pulled in; making each game, essentially, a unikernel — previously running on bare metal, later running under a hypervisor whose dom0 runs on a separate core) into finally having enough processing headroom that games could just now be regular user-mode applications running as processes under a pre-emptive OS scheduler.
The original Xbox shipped with an OS, and games ran under that OS. The OS gave itself a fixed time slice every frame. My understanding is that Microsoft was a bit quicker to move to a "normal" type of OS on their consoles, and the other vendors were a bit slower, but I think PS3 / Wii software ran under the console's OS as well, rather than the Unikernel style from the previous generation. The Xbox system software was forked from Windows 2000 (and heavily modified).
I guess it depends on what you mean by "regular user-mode applications". The PS3 runs what is believed to be a fork of FreeBSD. The Wii had system software, and new games shipped with a copy of the latest software bundled (so you would still get updates without a network connection).
You could certainly still say that the 'game ran under the OS' in this case since the kernel and drivers were underneath it, but I think it's fair to consider that a different beast from more modern consoles that have a full OS available underneath that you can summon with the home button and does things in the background like maintain a persistent network connection, do background downloads, etc.
There is however the ARM coprocessor that handles things like Bluetooth, USB, crypto etc. (basically, most of the stuff the Gamecube doesn't have). This does run its own IOS[1] software loaded from flash that is isolated from the PowerPC side of things where the game is running.
[1] No, not that one. Or the other one.
Not really, maybe by a stretch. Games run under a heavily stripped down Windows 2000 kernel, which most people would not really consider an OS on its own. It's a... kernel.
The SDK that got compiled into the game contained a full tcp/ip stack as it was not included in the kernel, as well as directx, sound libraries etc. The kernel was really just barely what you needed to get things going. It was crammed into 256kb, including the entire bootup animation/sound. Everything else came from the game.
Right, that was my point — that there was always still hand-tuned non-portable code "in" each final game build, since such code was 1. part of the SDKs, and 2. the SDKs were themselves built using some sort of macro-based code-preprocessor framework (i.e. a custom compilation toolchain that did whatever the platform owner wanted it to do), rather than just being a regular linkable library of extern-C symbols that you could use with any compilation toolchain targeting the correct architecture.
And, further, the reason for this, was that the 8th console generation was the first time we ended up, unilaterally across all platforms, with OSes that acted to provide Hardware Abstraction Layers for games, with "driver" code living in the OS, opaque to game application software, and able to be upgraded independently of game application software. Until then, games were mostly expected to know how to do MMIO against the various device ports of the CPU/GPU/etc. themselves — and the SDK helped with that by compiling down directly into manipulations of those device ports. (In short, the "device drivers" were part of the SDK, rather than in the console firmware.)
We didn't get truly "just a C library, that just makes system calls to the OS kernel" SDKs until the 8th console gen. (It was a distinct shock to see when I first read through the Wii U SDK docs, after having been a Wii developer.)
This was also precisely when we started to see third-party vendor-neutral game authoring solutions (e.g. Unity) ship "export to console title" features — because doing so now just meant cross-compiling the game for a known ISA, and linking against a plain-old directory of SDK libraries.
And while yes, the Xbox was an interesting exception — "the Windows 2000 box" — it wasn't entirely immune from this. Much like Wii games shipped with their own customized/patched exokernel forks (the "IOS" firmware), Xbox games shipped with their own vendored [and potentially customized-by-Microsoft] versions of DirectX et al. And these weren't like the user-mode Windows DirectX library: they didn't go through the OS, but rather did MMIO directly, just like other platforms' SDKs were doing. (And this is why HLE emulation, which you'd intuitively expect would work great for the Xbox, actually sucks! You need to low-level emulate each game's variant of each DirectX library to get everything perfect.)
> I guess it depends on what you mean by "regular user-mode applications"
"User mode" has a specific meaning: that the CPU has virtual memory management, and privilege levels that mask out certain instructions; that there are privileged / ring-0 processes that run with full ability to execute instructions, and unprivileged / ring-3 processes that run without full ability to execute instructions, but which must instead use system calls to context-switch to an OS kernel that itself is privileged and will perform the privileged action on behalf of the unprivileged process.
As of the 8th gen, all the consoles have a CPU of this type, and do this with their apps. It's the first gen where you can really call the games "application software." (Which all the platform owners seem to realize — they actually use the words "application" or "software" in the OSes for these consoles in ways they previously didn't.)
for a long time, the only way to get performance out of code was to write the most-used bits in assembly. even today there are some things, just a few, which still need to be in assembly if you really want to squeeze out all the performance that you can. most people just make a tradeoff elsewhere to get the performance, rather than using assembly.
just 25 years ago the game industry was filled with people extremely knowledgeable in assembly. yet today it is viewed as a black art. sad.
Why is that sad? It looks like progress to me.
Economizing on inputs is how productivity improvements look like. Human capital is an input like any other.
Similar considerations apply to more boring enterprise software development too: most developers these days could probably not write a hashtable from scratch. And that's good! We have libraries for that. Thus the industry is much more accessible to more people.
(I do understand the temptation of nostalgia.)
> Why is that sad? It looks like progress to me.
It is progress, yes, and I wonder where compiler authors are going to come from in the future. If we forget how to write in assembly, we forget how to tell computers how to do it.
I think of it by way of analogy: I can buy bottles of water in the store, so why do I still want drinkable water from my tap? Bottled water is progress, and drinkable water from the tap is "the old way." The old ways are important. Especially when they are the foundations of our modern technical society like compilers are.
It is true that new people can learn assembly when it comes time for them to write a compiler, or contribute to one, and as the number of assembly authors falls, the fewer opinions we will have about things, and the more monolithic things will be. When lots of people are part of a community, there is great diversity of thought in that community. If it's just a few (hundred?) people who speak assembly, the diversity of thought, and thus innovation in compilers will be almost nil. It is literally better for everyone if there are more who can write assembly well.
Secondly, people are avoiding learning assembly because they are afraid of it, which makes some sense to me at first glance, and makes no sense to me after writing some assembly. There is literally nothing scary about assembly; it just SEEMS scary. It can be quite fun to see just how little it takes to do things, and then observing just how unbelievably fast those programs are when run.
Part of the sadness I mention above is just "old man yells at cloud," but some of it is, I believe, bad for us in the long term if assembly does truly become a black art.
Eg bottles are more convenient when hiking. (Though there's no reason why you couldn't just put tap water in a bottle.)
This lament draws a straight line back to concerns over books hurting memory and a culture of oral and visual teaching and storytelling. Books probably did have that effect, but the gain was worth it. There would have been no books to hold on to the progress of the ancients through the various rough patches Europe went through without books. "How much progress was lost because it wasn't written down?" and "how much progress was lost because the tools were inaccessible to the person with the right idea?" are the same question.
Assembly is fairly easy to learn (going by my few attempts) in the same way picking up the syntax for most languages is easy, but doing anything non-trivial is at least as involved as any other way of communicating with thinking sand.
Btw, compiler writing has also improved a lot. Thanks to projects like LLVM, you don't need to know assembly to write a compiler for your new language.
Also: there's plenty of people with interest in obscure technologies and languages. Have a look at the demo scene where people still write new material for the Commodore 64. Or the trend of making new games for NES and the original Gameboy. There are plenty of people who work close to the bare metal, because it's fun.
Thankfully ZSNES hasn't been relevant for some time, though Kega-Fusion is still a big deal because the Sega emulation scene is a mess (I think BizHawk is the only other decent Genesis emulator with Sega CD and 32X support). Hopefully Ares will catch up one day and put everything else out to pasture.
I wrote something about this reverse-engineering effort, including an interview with the developer who created this page: https://www.vice.com/en/article/akvkyb/programmer-uses-nsa-t...
For those curious about how it runs, this video does a good job highlighting how it works in a variety of games: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fXQbWm2iMg
Possible that it doesn't matter, but it is interesting and we'll never know
How the game was emulated, however, definitely was.
Author of this emulator really sounds like a man with an insane amount of skills and an even larger grudge assuming he actually did either of the two things just out of spite. Got to respect his dedication either way.
Considering how badly his privacy was violated during the late 90's, it's not even a little surprising that he never released it.
It seems people never learn: just look at the effort to find who Satoshy or _why_ are. This is not respectful: they gave you something cool and asked to be left alone. Their work is theirs and they generously shared it with you. Why do they believe they are owed anything else? Why can't some people take "please stop" for a response? Why do they keep trying their best to alienate the very people who accomplished miracles way beyond their capabilities?
It seems self destructive in any way I take it, and driven only by spite/jealousy/beggar-chooser spirit.
Should I do like you and exclude from the sympathy due to every human being those who are filthy poor if I don't like the poors? Or will you invoke some special exemption clause making it totally ok, like it's ok to punch up but not down?
If I should not, maybe you should ask yourself if respect should exclude those who you dislike, because other people may dislike those you like... or even yourself.
(I don't want to imply that Satoshi did anything untoward, because I don't think he did. However, it's a valid thing to want to investigate.)
What should his financial state have to do with his want to retain privacy?
The emu scene still has lots of drama, but it's different and I won't get into why on Hackernews.
EDIT: In fact Damaged Cybernetics, which was indeed the group to go to for emulation news and information back in the day, was disbanded because of the backlash against its leader, who had the friendly nick "MindRape". MindRape stole and released the source code to... NESticle, leading to Sardu's withdrawal from the scene and the lack of a SNESticle we can all enjoy.
It was Genecyst that had the bloody menus.
Back in the day, we didn't really worry about software like this being malicious just because of the author's gruesome sense of humor. It was all part of the fun. Back in the 90s, people were edgy like that. It's not like today where you're suspected of cryptofascism for not properly reciting the right nostrums. If it were malicious, someone would've found out, word would have spread around the scene, and the author would be branded the worst of lamers. People had reputations to uphold and good will to farm out of the community, even when running quasi-legal programs to play pirated ROMs.
There's a certain irony in the fact this is exactly how it works today.
I guess the difference is back then you were in on "the right nostrums", some people likely weren't and felt just as alienated by that scene as you do by today's...
There was a lot less incentive to be malicious. No crypto-mining on compromised devices, no ransomware, and limited Internet banking
Source: I made a lot of money between the ages of 12-15 running HijackThis and Spybot Search and Destroy on neighbors' machines.
Other source: circumvented my school's firewall with "anonymous proxies" on lists of what, in hindsight, were absolutely compromised machines.
The Android PS2 emulation drama is hilarious (and sad). For the most part a lot of the modern drama is around money, it seems?
"Sardu was running Windows 95 at the time. He made the mistake of leaving drive sharing on (which should not have been on by default, but for some reason, it was on). MindRape was then able to mount Sardu's hard drive (since drive sharing was enabled) with Samba. Pretty clever, right? Regardless, he did this and not only was he able to retrieve the NESticle source code, he was able to look through all of his drives. His Zip drive. His hard drive. His CD-ROM drive. Whatever he wanted. Such an invasion of privacy is ridiculous, but this is what transpired."
It's free but Windows-only so I can't check it out. Looks pretty crazy.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/378300/The_Knobbly_Crook/
It was actually Genecyst that lead me to Windows software development (before then I was mainly focused on older micro computers, DOS and a little bit of web development if I was bored). But I wanted a way to hide my gaming activities on college machines so wrote some Windows software to hide Genecyst from the task bare, "boss screens" and such like. This lead me onto Win32 APIs and a whole other rabbit hole of fun and nefarious projects that would have likely lead to a criminal record if it happened today. But it was a great learning experience and lead to the reputable career I have today.
This is the second article on SNESticle to reach the front page within the last few weeks and neither talks about whether the emulator is actually any good, only that it’s legendary.
is "liberating" another emulator going to get anyone anything new?
For them, I imagine it's less about how good it is, and more about simply having access to it now.
Either way, bsnes meets all of my needs. I have no nostalgia towards an emulator that I have never used previously, and I can count SNESticle among the emulators that I have never used.