Naturally, that led me to trying to enumerate when I should leave a job.
I'm curious what metrics others here use to determine when it's time to move on. What makes you decide that it's time to quit your job?
An anecdote: I previously left a job to pursue what I thought would be a great opportunity to work with a “modern” and fun technology stack. However, my new manager turned out to be a totally manipulative jerk and my coworkers were rude and uncaring. I lasted about 9 months there (enduring stress and panic attacks like I’d never dealt with) before I reached out to my old boss and asked for my old job back, which is where I’ve been for the last 4 years and I’m very happy I made that decision.
So even if the stack is terrible, think about how other aspects of the job impact your mental health and stress levels. Can you live with a terrible stack (or maybe even think about ways to improve it) while working with good people? Does your compensation cover any downsides to working with that stack?
If you feel you’re underpaid, can’t stand the technology, and the relationships with your coworkers don’t balance either of those aspects out, then I think it’s time to pursue something else. But be warned that the grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
https://www.gallup.com/workplace/236213/why-need-best-friend...
And I agree. I've been at my current job over a decade, and there have absolutely been rough patches for which the main thing carrying me through was getting to work with good people.
I lucked into some great coworkers for my first two jobs out of college. I assumed the whole industry was this way.
Then eventually a company came along and offered me compensation that I couldn't refuse. I joined assuming I'd be surrounded by good coworkers as before, but I was wrong. It was toxic from the top down, but they used the high compensation (including back-loaded vesting schedules and signing bonuses with long retention periods) as a hook to keep employees in the toxic environment.
I made a lot of money, but it took a major toll on my health. I ended up taking time off after leaving that job, to the point that the extra compensation was largely a wash relative to what I could have made somewhere else.
YMMV. There are great companies with great compensation, great tech stacks, and great people. But it's rare to get the entire combination in one. FAANG type jobs with an easy manager might be the most repeatable option, but even there you can end up with a bad department or bad manager that defines your experience. Nothing is guaranteed.
I'm sure it varies by company, but did they bother with a standard interview loop?
Another thing to note is that when I left previously I did so on very good terms and gave plenty of notice. I’m sure that played a part in how willing they were to have me come back.
I've made the mistake before of staying longer at a job than I should have because my manager and team were awesome. Then my manager decides to resign for greener pastures. Thankfully his replacement was also a great guy...until he too resigns two years later.
Coincidentally, having been traumatized by the departure of the first manager, I too had been preparing to leave and had offers in hand (not because I was strictly unhappy, but along the lines of "a leetcode a day keeps unemployment away"). My (second) manager's departure was the nail in the coffin and sealed the deal.
Furthermore, shortly after both I and my (second) manager had left, the higher-ups decided to completely reorganize the entire department so all the existing teams were broken apart and everyone shuffled around into new teams. From what I heard, people were not happy.
I think the days when you could depend on your manager and team to be a constant factor are long gone unless you're working for a very small shop where your manager might be the owner/CEO. Meanwhile, the tech stack is much more likely to be a constant factor during your entire tenure.
Your manager's and teammates' first responsibility is their own career. If they see greener pastures, they will jump ship regardless of your situation. You should likewise, lest you end up holding bags.
If you need logical reasons why, read about this study on how we all should make more change decisions:
https://www.inc.com/jessica-stillman/study-of-20000-coin-tos...
The truth is that most people make their decisions emotionally, then explain and achieve them rationally. That's okay. Do what you want to do, not what you think you can justify.
I've accepted a lower salary a few times to move on from an org to a better work life balance. Usually it involves moving away from NYC companies. Salary shouldn't be the singular reason for not accepting a position if it's competitive.
But it's another layer of tactical thinking - what are you getting in exchange for that money? So for the OP, I'd encourage them to figure out if they're making market rate or not before they make that judgment.
I'd be hesitant on giving this advice because it's the exception - not the norm.
I've done the same - taken less pay for a chance at a better work environment. But I was going from like $1m+/yr (IPO gains) to $400k/yr. It was a huge cut but it wasn't going from market rate to below market rate which is what your advice is kinda leading with. It was going from a very "above market rate" (tbh - it was probably still below market rate because I had done startups before that hadn't worked out... This was one that was kinda working out) to something closer to market rate.
I plan to change jobs and find one with better hours, better environment, etc... I plan to make about $500k/yr at the next job.
I'm in the NYC area, and the delta between companies in NYC vs. elsewhere nearby (i.e. NJ) is huge both in terms of options and pay.
I have a few friends in NJ that explicitly refuse to work in NYC/Manhattan because of the horrible commute/transit situation. The downside is that they seem to have very limited options in terms of companies they can work for in NJ.
Our intuition often misguides us when problems are complex. Whether or not this is the type of problem that you should follow your intuition on depends on how multi-faceted the criteria are for a successful work relationship. The more multi-faceted the criteria, the more we should use our rational brain to decide.
There's something about simple studies about long term/life altering decisions that appeals to me. I get the same feeling from reading this and reading 80,000 hours [0].
Anyways after five months of textbook perfect gitops, I'd had my third conversation with a human being at this company (Manager didn't do 1-1s, team didn't talk, there was no 'watercooler' chat. And this was in a physical office!). They said that if everyone was doing their jobs perfectly, that no one would really need to communicate outside of code commits.
Of course, this was extreme and I just picked the wrong place because I got strung up on a shiny tech stack. Something in the middle would have been better. I went back to my original job after five months, even with the crummy tech stack, because the people are social and it seems like they benefit from my presence.
I'm glad I did it - I learned a lot, at the cost of suffering some extreme loneliness, doubt, and then self-humiliation to get back to where I was before I started. I recommend anyone try it to at least get it out of their systems.
My job is the same, but it seems less bad. Is that a win?
Would you do it again?
But… I can tell you that there’s some weird recommendation right now that if you are the least bit unhappy, or have the slightest bit of FOMO, or have been slighted in the tiniest of ways… “that you must quit”.
Like… that people are being convinced there is no value in having a current job if it isn’t your dream job.
I just had a developer ghost us two weeks ago. Just not come in one day and only when repeatedly texted answered he is looking for other work. Besides the extremely unprofessional aspect, when pressed he had no answer for what we could do better except double his pay or why he wouldn’t look in his off time.
We paid him a good salary for his resume and work, but he has somehow convinced himself that he can make double somewhere else and still work 32 hours a week with an extremely relaxed working environment.
I just don’t get who is making these insane recommendations to people, or why anyone would listen.
I wish our former guy luck, but whatever job you plan on taking - please don’t fucking ghost your employer out of no where.
Yeah I have also found this, it's a bit strange. I think the pandemic changed it a lot as well. Employers got more desperate and employees noticed.
>please don’t fucking ghost your employer.
Yeah OP, please don't do this. Common courtesy and such. I encourage everyone to not be an asshole. You totally can, just try not to.
Or are you saying that they can just switch again? They can, of course, but if you've switched N times in the last few years, at least some of the more functional places start becoming reluctant to hire you...
You sound like a reasonable human but the quoted is a huge red flag for me. Whenever someone said 'we pay him a good salary' it was far from the truth.
And then I ran into two folks from another company at an event, the discussion was going really well, and one of them, the boss, told me "Join us!" (I didn't show any intent to join them or to quit my current job).
That solved the problem for me. They seem to offer what I'm looking for. This is an opportunity that ran into me.
I wouldn't rely on such thing to happen, but maybe it can happen to you too?
ie its never a bad time
That being said, I interview engineers at a larger tech company. I view it as a negative for a candidate to have multiple short term stints (less than a year).
There, now that number is 1.
Do you mind explaining why? I would personally be seen like that by you, but I personally consider it a good thing that I was able to "rise" so quickly in my career. I'd like to hear your take on this if possible.
I'm curious what you would think about someone who's stayed at one company (same role, same team, maybe some minor increase in responsibility and rank) for 5 years? 10 years?
Would you view someone like that better or worse than someone who has multiple n <= 2 year stints during that time?
My observation recently, having been through interview loops and having stayed at my previous company for 7 years, is that longer tenures seem to be perceived as bad these days at tech companies...possibly worse than multiple short stints. Perceptions of expert beginner syndrome, 1 year of experience * n years instead of n years of experience, laziness, lack of motivation, etc. being typical reasons given.
It depends. A long tenure means I will check in the interviews whether you were stagnating and just killing time, or growing and delivering on major improvements.
One of the best people I worked with spent 10 years at a very minor company, but the work they spoke about in the interview was extensive, and they took on a huge amount of development work across our entire company once they joined.
Of course when you're making this assessment, there are a bunch of unknowns about any potential new job, so it has to look significantly better to compensate for the risk you're taking (and for the overhead of switching).
If you are looking for growth and learning opportunities, and you aren't getting them, them find a new job and then leave. The job market for engineers is red hot, so that shouldn't be a concern. And, assuming you have a little bit of discretional money / savings, you should be fine on that front.
Just be aware, the grass isn't always greener and it's very hard to learn about an company from the outside, because culture can be very different team to team. So, if you move once, be prepared to have to move again, if need be.
For me, I'm still looking for growth and to take on more responsibilities (to grow as a leader). I've learned that if your boss isn't your champion, growth isn't going to come inline. So, it's probably time to leave. But, that's just me.
1) I had no where to go career wise. Vertical movement meant becoming a manager
2) My last couple of performance reviews felt like they were nitpicking to rank me lower. It felt like a cheap trick.
3) We went from being an R&D POC group to a production group. I enjoyed both, but the former is more fun
If you have a lot of saving you can sometimes risk leaving for a few months of travel, but give yourself plenty of time to get a job before savings runs out. (Different counties have different support for this so check to see how the rules work where you live )
If they are doing something illegal then if you don't quit when you discover it, that is because the FBI or equivalent asked you to stay on to gather evidence. Illegal covers harassment, though you shouldn't stay on if it is against you )
In general though don't risk not having income.
I'd quit if "things turned sour", that depends the mood, the interpersonal relationships, my own sense of feeling good about the situation at work.
I know some people are very worried about "falling behind", and they may be right, I don't know, I explore stuff that interests me, I do that either on my own time, or I find some excuse to do it at work (metaprogramming, refactoring, internal or personal tool building, are examples where you can do whatever you want).
If you're "already gone" and wondering when to look for a position truly outside of your current team / department / company / industry then the best time to start looking is... today. The sooner you start the sooner you'll begin gaining the most valuable resource possible in this scenario: more information! Knowing what kind of response your resume is getting, what roles are out there for you, what companies are interested in you, and what the pay looks like for those roles... all of that is very difficult to acquire absent an actual job search. The sooner you start looking, the sooner you'll have a feel for where your resume and interviewing skills could take you next. Then you can weigh if it's enough better than your current role to be worth it.
Other factors or metrics or motivators or whatever we might call them may include money (you mentioned), comfort, job security, work environment, travel time ...I can't think of any more right now. One big indicator might be when you wake up in the morning and you dread going into work. Chances are you will be happier somewhere else.
You're time and skills are valuable, that's why you get paid to do the job you do. It's up to you to find the line.
(edit) Also, you can try moving up in the company you are in? If you like the culture and environment and whatnot, and feel you are being under utilized, they may have something more demanding for you to do there.
There is just something missing. I feel like I’ve reached a peak and am not actively learning and growing. However, the last thing I want to do is go to a toxic environment that expects long hours and treats employees terribly.
As for when: You said your job pays decently well and you're working with good people. Don't underestimate the value of that! If you're not actively escaping a toxic situation, it's not a good idea to rush your job search. Take your time to find a known good working environment as your next step.
And the problem is, you don't get told in the interview, "Yeah, our management is insane". You usually find that out later. Same with toxic coworkers. So, is the tech stack bad enough to be worth rolling the dice?
But escaping a shitty stack may be a good idea. If you spend 7 years working in some retro cold fusion environment that will certainly look bad on the resume.
If the stack is uninspiring but pragmatic (let's say Oracle + java) then other factors should rank higher.
That way you have a feel for the waters, see what's available in terms of tech stack and team culture/vibe, with a much longer runway of looking around than when you are pushed off the cliff on a dead-end project, where you know it's the last straw. You are less stressed this way.
Also, something my brother told me years ago is, "if you're trying to decide between two things, try to pick the one that lets you do both."
As with the stock market people tend to sell too late when prices are falling and sell too early when prices are rising. Sounds like you are waiting to "call the bottom before selling".
Including salary, experience, connections, fun, whatever your priorities are.
And you’re the only one who can estimate the value right.
Research on psychology (loss aversion) suggests the same thing, AFAICT.
* Gain experience in new domains (e.g. go from web dev to backend distributed systems)
* Gain experience in a new role (tech lead, manager, etc.)
* Make more money
* Work at a place with more scale
* Work at a place that's more prestigious (FAANG or startup)
* Build more professional contacts
* Apply experience you already have for big impact
Any young engineer should seriously consider changing jobs every 2 years or so.
When you can't decide, answer is no - Naval Ravikant
I was working on a pretty nice project when this long-term client announced that for the next project, we would need to support an old version of the operating system. I had just gotten up to speed on the latest APIs and their statement meant, that my efforts would be a malinvestment.
I stopped working for them, and took on another long-term client.
That should, hopefully, make all kinds of life decision-making easier. You'll still need to make calculations and take risks, but it'll keep you on course.
«when you can't make the right thing happen, it's time to quit»
I think it's a general rule of thumb, albeit it should probably be interpreted according to one's specific situation.
You can't influence anything if you aren't valued in any way.
I've heard recently that when faced with indecision it can be helpful to brainstorm a bunch of different questions to ask oneself.
Have you bounced around a lot between different jobs throughout your career?
But really the answer is you should probably leave and sooner the better. I think this XKCD cartoon is pretty spot on: https://xkcd.com/1768/ In my experience it is pretty accurate and it is the answer you are looking for.
2. Some of the team is lousy but no one seems to be working on coaching/firing them
3. Management won't spend a dollar to save a dollar
As far as learning is concerned, you have various opportunities to learn outside of work as well, taking course or building project.
"Ok, I quit."
The antivaxers are not, and have never been at any time in history, on the right side.