Why not anchor earnings into homesteading? | Hacker News Reader

Why not anchor earnings into homesteading?

Why aren't tech/coders anchoring earnings into agroforestry/agriculture/homesteading? often youthful, financially stable and exhausted from screen activities it seems the ideal marriage.

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Some of us are. I spent 8 years on a small 3 acre homestead learning the ropes, and we moved to a 40 acre property last spring. Now that we are settled in, I'm planning out the vision for the next 3-5 years to build up everything we want to do here.

But that also answers your question of why not - who in their right mind wants to spend all their free time and energy for years just to learn skills and build out your vision? Even I, while actively doing it, do it because my wife likes it. If not for that, I would not be doing this either.

At the same time, the more we expand broadband internet to all rural areas, the more there can be a partnership between one person who does the tech work to pay the bills, while the other person does the physical work around the home. Not all couples are going to be interested, but such a setup at least helps ease the financial burden of such hobbies. After all, home-grown veggies from your homestead are both free and at the same time the most expensive produce you'll ever buy.

Def thing folk jumping in the space of growing/living your own. Def thing its not a free time thing its something your have to do (full time) and spend your "free time" doing something other than it... I set the land of for when I am 150yrs old so I can always do the work while it should be work. broadband internet is a big deal in the NS Canada area where my property is. thing is folks whom own "land grants" or land secured and recorded in land forestry as AR or with particular uses cannot use that land for much other thing nor do most trust the government to allow much of anything put onto their property. so it would be good but is nice having to walk to the neighbors and speak when the animals get out. its been much hard to work and ten to the properties for me, as i had to jump back into the workspace. now i have cut ties with the to become full time again; remote work is helping.

The way this question is worded makes it seem like it's so easy to go into agriculture / homesteading...there is a wealth of knowledge you have to have to have to do it right, it's not just buying land, plants and watering them. And more often than not, that knowledge is not readily available online, and comes with time and immersion.

Source: from a rural area

great point. I work the land daily and often look up to think [ i need help/more hands and "folks would love this experience" if they just tried and unplugged a bit. interesting enough i see a great shift happening, folks or more than ever interested getting their hands dirty/working the land.

Another thing that hasn't been addressed completely below is the challenge of agriculture being an activity where investment needs to be made in large chunks, at somewhat unexpencted times. The OP question implies that homesteading is like purchasing shares of stock or crypto, when as folks have mentioned here, investments tend to be things like land in 10 acre scale increments (which is a big chunk of money wherever you are) and things like equipment, seasonal labor and seed/seedling trees/breeding stock, which can be as in the thousands to tens of thousands (or much more!), depending on what your plans are. All of these costs tend to be big - maybe bigger than you have to spend from your work income that year. But they may have to be spent to participate in the season that year. Often, it doesn't make economic sense to plant 1/10 as much seed, or graft over 1/10 of your orchard, since there are some fixed costs that don't reduce. And in some cases (like combines) there just aren't good alternatives to the big guns for smaller farms - that's a reason you don't see many homesteaders growing cool ancient grain varieties, because it doesn't make economic sense to harvest them by hand, and you can't get a teeny tiny combine easily.

Obviously it's not impossible - if you can do it, do it. We need more creative, small farmers more than just about anything else (in the US especially!). But just don't think it's like going online and putting 20% of your paycheck into Coinbase.

"But just don't think it's like going online and putting 20% of your paycheck into Coinbase."

Agreed

Land is def not cheap but it can be. Living and Vancouver BC, I would look to the N east of Canada because is was beautiful and much more within my what i could almost afford. Family, friends, laughed at my interest in NS. and would say why this and that; most living in housing and several families to a single home to save money. One guy I worked with said he had said the same thing many years ago and not doing it was the biggest mistake he made. I remembered this. Acreages with livable homes on them were was literally for sale 10k-100+; this was in 2009-2010. fast forward to 2018...prices were still about the same. purchased a farmhouse on over 100 acres for about 100K. Covid hit and the area land prices have went through the roof; in some places 30-60%.

That said a convention loan or various money strategies such as owner finance, leasing, work for living is real. It has been my experience that i watch my friends and family purchase various things, via cash/ borrowing etc... but they turn their nose at purchasing land because its a lot of work; as been mention throughout this thread. Crazy enough the land on a farm is no different from purchasing 2Bth 4Brd home when things start to need servicing or replacement, many just pay some else to do the work. Def belive in paying for knowledge or how to do but this is often not case.

"things like equipment, seasonal labor and seed/seedling trees/breeding stock, which can be as in the thousands to tens of thousands (or much more!), depending on what your plans are. All of these costs tend to be big - maybe bigger than you have to spend from your work income that year. But they may have to be spent to participate in the season that year." is a often not true...but what one thinks they have to do when land is sought or secured; you do way to much work BC your a "farmer" now. This is one reason, why many land owner in US are in debt prompting a high suicide rate while the soils lack nutrients and are tree/weed less in the west. Scale is often measured commercially for sure. life you said, creativity is important and being able to to say... i don't know what I'm doing let me ask a senior/elder or study a method/approach that works for my situation.

Personally, I travel a lot. I can barely keep plants alive when I'm gone, so an homestead is not feasible.

I don't want to commit to the constant effort homesteading demands. I can currently drop everything and leave at a moment's notice. I can work remotely for as long as needed. A homestead would tie me to a place.

I also like living close to the city and its variety. I don't like the areas where homesteading is possible.

It's hard to turn a good profit with small scale agriculture today. One has to do it for the love of it, or self sufficiency like homesteading.

The biggest issue is land and location. Good land is expensive and it's extraordinarily expensive in the areas where many if the highly compensated devs live. Remember that the median US dev salary is around $110k. That doesn't provide much land. The ones who do have the money would have to enjoy it more than alternative lifestyles that may be more attractive (bigger house, fancier stuff, vacations), as the compensation would be a relative pittance.

I'm a beekeeper, garden, and grow mushrooms. I would love land but can't afford it.

yes, I found this out selling everything and getting back to doing the work. folks simply don't want to pay for " low grow" various other practices. Location is essential. I think a lot of land is available but many realtor and other deter folks from purchasing/mortgaging land within the metro areas; assuming they even know what their looking for. I purchase two pieces of property from seniors... first first the owner would not sale to any " city person" so she loved what i wanted to do and that i agreed to give her what she was asking. the other land piece is a beautiful property to which the owner stated his family didn't want anything more to with it. both places... i researched and travel and went myself to see and acquire. currently, i've given up on bring the property to scale as there so much set work im doing and the often overlooked piece is people... you need people. some seasons I've had more than i could do with few purchasers. good thing my children are now growing and eating quite a bit but i still have the same problem... finding people. if your ever in the Metro ATL area or near the Cabot Trail in NS, let me know maybe we can work together.

You can't mortgage raw land. You need a special land loan which tend to require significant down payment and have very short terms. It's much easier to find land in ATL area and it's cheaper. Land around here goes for $50k-$100k per acre.

Lack of labor, or margins too small to pay labor, are a major problem.

Tying yourself to a location creates a hard dependency on local circumstances and conditions, specifically policies and politics.

Only since fairly recently have people in the tech industry been able to make a living independent of their location and the place they live in particular. Intentionally giving up that privilege again is a trade-off not many will be willing to make.

Another route would be to get into machining. Like in agriculture, it's very important to be aware of the potential for losing a limb in milliseconds if you don't respect the tools. You also end up with useful stuff that you can see, instead of commits to a git somewhere.

yes, folks always need machines repaired, rented or serviced.

I have been working remotely as a software developer and building out homestead and growing systems since 2014.

We left the SF Bay area and moved to the Sierra foothills in California. Close enough to drive back for work if needed, but where (at the time) housing (and land) was much more affordable.

I only have two acres. I'm not doing anything commercial. Our home was someone else's retirement dream originally - custom built home, basement, small vineyard of a little over 100 vines, fruit trees.

In a good year, we can yield 80-100 bottles of zinfandel, made in a "natural winemaking" style. After years of trying to do too much, my only real goal this year is to get my first chickens going.

To answer the question in the original post, "why aren't..?", I know quite a few reasons, having been doing it myself.

To summarize and expand on what others have already said in other comments -

It is hard to monetize or turn a profit at it. This is 100% true especially when you compare earnings for your software work vs your intensive manual labor. You probably have to being doing it for the love of it and the for love of self sufficiency. If you are thinking about anchoring earnings in a quantitative sense, consider shifting your thinking to all the qualitative aspects instead.

I agree with another comment that much of our industry is probably in a demographic where they don't want to do physically taxing work. Think about how different physical work can tax your body compared to just exercising - if you go to a gym, jog, etc. you can have a routine you specifically design to not overexert yourself. If you order 40 bareroot trees, you're going to have to get them all in the ground within a limited time frame, or lose them. You may be reaching out at odd angles, over-using specific muscles, getting injured, etc. in this type of work.

Also agree that it is not easy! There is significant domain-specific knowledge you will need to commit to learning, in addition to keeping up with the latest tech trends. Probably nearly everyone who has grown any significant number of plants or raised animals has lost plenty. It takes knowledge and experience to get it right. And lots of knowledge is location specific - different parts of the world have different limiting factors, whether it's summer heat, winter cold, short growing season, high winds, predator/pest/disease species. You really do have to find it interesting and put in the time learning. At this point my mind is an encyclopedia of plant knowledge compared to most but I'm still learning about new species every year.

I'll add that, in order to get out, afford some space, etc. you'll likely end up in a rural area. Be fully prepared to get used to going without some of your city comforts. I can't get an Uber driver to pick me up at my house and take me downtown for a night out. Last summer I heard a Bay Area person joking to a friend, "so, been to all two restaurants out here?" Not quite fair, there are some really good places to eat and significantly more than two, but absolutely way fewer options than any large city or suburb. And lots less going on in terms of night life.

It can take some looking to find the right balance of modern amenities and rural charm. We have a modern hospital, a new cancer center, lots of grocery stores, a few small downtown areas, and three or four farmers markets, but a residential population a quarter the size of the suburb of the Bay Area we left spread out over an area significantly greater in size.

To build on this though, offer some good points and illustrate how I wish more of us would do this...

It is incredibly rewarding to see a tree you planted yourself go from palm size to twice your own height.

Local and home production can hedge against supply chain instability. It's a great pastime and/or profession and ideally more of us would be doing it. In an increasingly uncertain world, leveling up in good old-fashioned self-reliance is quite comforting and enjoyable.

Importing your tech worker salary to a region with few employers and less opportunity can make an impact. Tip your servers generously. Shop at local businesses. Hire local contractors and professionals. You might make a big difference. Keep in mind that your tech salary alone could easily be a few times the median household income of the region.

And just... be closer to nature. Observe the cycles of the seasons. Get used to seeing deer every day and accept that they want to eat everything you grow. Enjoy the less frequent sight of hawks and foxes or even a bobcat. Notice how many mushrooms sprout all over after the rains. Go a week, or more, without needing to leave your property. Realize that everything around you is part of nested, hierarchical self-organizing systems. Accept that human beings are a natural part of this world and at our best we can be caretakers of all that is alive.

great post. I made the jump about the same time dec 2014...after realizing that I couldn't do it anymore; the it being trying to grow veggies in S.FLA and have iguanas eat through them/ and the standard 9/5. Id wanted to return to nature as my family on both side were worked the land and lived in balance; and was raised heading and from the property in the sugarcane fields and the farm in S.Ga. its a lasting experience growing from land to plate. But the nature offers endless knowledge... the priceless night skies, feelin seasonal changes and shifts; over looking the deer, foxes and the hawks (whom grabbed at least 10 of our turkeys in the first first year and several of our bird) it s cool soulful experience. one thing I always enjoy when acquiring new plants or animals is traveling to other farms... we talk and talk. discussing each others set up, why we do what we do ete etc. more often when in the middle of no where or hours from my home, me and strangers find ourselves smiling at the world's illustrations as if we knowing are defying the odds. its def not easy and you have to see yourself in it. timing too is important. farmland is very hot now. "after years to trying to do too much" is where the work is or has been most in my experience. when i take a step back, dream, think and plan the work shifts in weight

There used to be a Permaculture Credit Union.

I think something like that would be workable? People invest into the CU which then makes loans (with due diligence) to people who are or want to develop agroforestry/agriculture/homesteading.

One reason is that those who like to work with their mind (so to speak) with minimal physical activity are probably not the demographic that are also interested in a physically taxing job like agriculture.

that was a piece i was trying to illustrate in my question; passively though. many think farm/agro work is physical it is but I'd hedge that its more "mind" work than physical. from marketing strategies, being able to communicate, laugh, enjoy the space etc. Moreover now folks like myself in the space are seeking to develop awesome digital/and physical bartering systems. Thing is when one really works land your realize that you need the folks ( Plants, animals etc) to which (mainstream)MS excludes from the space.

Where the is available land there are not a lot of jobs, and where there is available super cheap land there is either no internet, no water, or both.

this has been true and more true when I allowed and waited for my realtor to find a property. he couldn't and did not find any such type of property. I did and was able to find a gem. he didn't even want to waste our time by showing it we had to make him. often the land, which is unincorporated is not on the "listing email list." also senior or folks whom are alone and often struggle to present the home to motivate the a listing agent. watching the county un paid tax sell off often are where land ends up or in probate. one experience the listing agent seem to be unmotivated to sell me the acreage rather wanted me to purchase the higher prices turnkey up the street. Jobs are def a issues. what is working for me and has is acquiring the land and working into it as a steady pace. my little property was a mess and my mother told me to purchase a RV, bus or live in the van while you work and work on the home.. best advise i never took . now as I've learned i have the with me. water is another issues but again, if you have look and study what to look for your learn many communities have great water supplies but no one to install, maintain the wells. so you plan for this; also need to have water tested.

So I can't speak to the putting earnings in to or being financially stable because I'm a broke student self learning software development while bleeding savings. I have however been looking for casual work "getting my hands dirty" as you put it. Something physical and outdoors to unplug while I earn some money, and there's either basically none or its not listed on regular job boards.

This has been at a time where Omicron is ripping through my country[0] to the point where there's apparently such massive staff shortages that businesses are having to temporarily close because either they or key suppliers don't have enough staff to run. Possibly the greatest employee shortage in decades and I cant find anyone who needs manual labour.

I believe the shortage is there. At least as much as it's possible for such a thing to exist and not just mean that wages are too low. But my nerdy ass can't find the dirty hands stuff. Coming from a background in sales I know I could start lining up sales job interviews today if I wanted to go back in to that because I have people I can reach out to. Coming from software sales specifically and also just having good friends who are experienced software developers I'm confident I will be able to line up interviews once I and they feel I'm ready. But for getting my hands dirty? I don't know anyone. I'm sure there are people nearby who are wishing they had someone to lug fence posts or throw bags of potatoes, but they're not posting on job boards. They're mentioning it to people they know, which doesn't include me.

This is relevant because generally step one to starting a business is working in that kind of business. Maybe not when that just involves coding up a software product yourself on your weekends but definitely so when buying physical assets and new skill sets is involved. You spend time as a barista before you drop bank on buying a cafe. Or at least you should. I can't imagine farming is any different. In fact it's probably far more important. You can burn yourself if you don't know what you're doing as a barista. You can kill yourself in a hundred different ways if you don't know what you're doing as a farmer. Or just ruin your land or tractor, or kill your livestock or find out you've had them walking around in pain this entire time for X reason you didn't know to check for.

I'm not sure there is a fix to this because it's the same root cause as much bigger employment issues than software developers not getting a chance to take a break doing some physical work. Hiring decent people is hard and relying on referrals from mutually known third parties is the best tool there is for making it easier. Labour is the greatest expense for any tech company (except Netflix?). Any efficiency gain they can get there is far more important than shaving the equivalent percent off their compute needs. And the best they've got is still asking employees for referrals, paying employees for referrals, and weighting referrals heavily in the interview process. I don't blame the guy who needs someone to throw sacks on/off a truck a few times a week for not bothering to post on indeed and instead just letting it be known amongst friends and family that he could use a hand until someone offers up a nephew. I'm certain it gets better results and saves him a lot of headache. I know it did for me the times I've been in a position to hire people.

[0] https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/australia/...

"Or just ruin your land or tractor, or kill your livestock or find out you've had them walking around in pain this entire time for X reason you didn't know to check for." this is true and comes with or behind the fabulous IG post and MS making thing look easy breezy.def is a shortage here in the state. "I don't blame the guy who needs someone to throw sacks on/off a truck a few times a week for not bothering to post on indeed and instead just letting it be known amongst friends and family that he could use a hand until someone offers up a nephew." As this guy I can do a better at posting on different job boards because family does not do the work... and a wise man told me don't count on my children helping or picking up where i left off, rather allow them to have fun enjoying the experience through play and discipline. So it just Me and my wife doing what she can and learning as we go.

I do believe folks want in and are out here but its hard reach the people. one site i like is

https://www.goodwork.ca/jobs

it can be helpful and has been close thing i see that tailored toward "getting hand dirty" and the agro industry on various levels.

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