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Comment by tw04 | Hacker News Reader

I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free. They decimate the songbird population and kill for fun. You want to talk about low-hanging fruit to protect mother nature? Keep your cats inside or tethered if they're outside... we expect it from dog owners, and rightly so. Not sure why people with cats think they should be free to roam.

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They are killing machines. Cute, cuddly killing machines. But they also kill vermin that eat garden plants. If you've got a serious vegetable garden going, outdoor cats can really help take care of gophers, rabbits, squirrels, and mice. Won't take care of the deer though, but a good fence and a 12 gauge will.

I'd go with a rat terrier or other such rodent killing dog.

But then you'd own a rat terrier.

> I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free.

See, I can't fathom the opposite. Cats belong outdoors. I will never have an indoor cat. Vote me down as much as you like, THAT is unnatural (I will also not have exoctic cats that could only live indoors).

The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully.

Although I do wish we could create cats, by selection or some day by gene editing, that leave birds alone completely.

> Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully.

uh... but if those predators are bred by humans, it's unnatural

We do? I know of pup mills, I am unaware of cat mills. Maybe for exotic cats, but those would be the types people keep at home because they would not fare so well outside anyway.

And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural? That exists among animals too.

hm I guess you're trying to make this into cat vs dog owners...

but it's about:

* properly keeping your pet from harm / harming others *

> And since when is one species doing something that benefits another unnatural?

well I guess humans interfering nature is "natural" after all... I mean, we're "part of nature"

Well, cats wouldn't be anywhere except for Africa and maybe eastern Europe if it wasn't for humans.

(Yes, I know wildcats exist, but their ranges and populations are limited)

>The greatest danger to songbirds is human changes to the environment, not cats, by several orders of magnitude. Animals having predators is not exactly unnatural, to put it carefully.

We aren't going to stop creating buildings with windows. Outside of that, the largest killer of birds is by cats, by a long shot. Which is literally 100% preventable. And no, humans are NOT an order of magnitude more than cats, not even close.

https://www.sibleyguides.com/conservation/causes-of-bird-mor...

Given all the many articles about the decline of many kinds of birds, your claim that cats are to blame is plain wrong. That was not the conclusion in any of those many articles that we could read right here on HN. Lack of environment and of food - insects is the usual culprit named in them.

Cats are one reason, but certainly not the dominating one. Neither would cats matter at all without the other reasons because there would be plenty of birds.

In this discussion I'll take the downvotes with pride, this is getting ridiculous.

You should read your sources more carefully. The article you posted explicitly makes the same argument as nosianu:

> First, it should be stated that the single most significant threat to bird populations is habitat destruction, in all of its forms and with all of its causes. The various causes of mortality outlined below kill individual birds directly, and can certainly have an adverse effect on population size, but can actually have a beneficial effect in some cases. Studies of hunting have documented that in certain cases killing small numbers of birds can improve the health and survival of the remaining birds. As long as the habitat is intact, the population has the potential to replace the lost birds.

Are pet cats not considered a human change to the environment? Feral cat colonies are an entirely different ecosystem than pet cats, from what I can gather.

Edit: Also, I can understand your sentiment for not wanting to have an indoor cat. It seems 'unnatural' to me too. I want to them to have as much freedom and joy as possible, but... I've also had outdoor cats that just get run over, so. I don't know what the right way is.

The "change to the environment" that has the biggest effect is habitat destruction. There are places, especially remote islands, where cats have had significant effects on the environment, but in most places predation of songbirds by cats is dwarfed by predation from other animals.

That seems like a reasonable explanation to me, but to just give a reference for my train of thought... I was thinking of Macquarie Island, which has a weird history of animal/pest control. Rodents were introduced to the island, then cats to help with the rodents... and then the cats wiped out the native seabird population.

Edit: Just realized I'm mentioning a small island, like you said, hehe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macquarie_Island#Ecological_ba...

Housecats being anywhere other than desert predators _is_ a human change to the environment. They were then introduced places other than Egypt and the levant because of how efficient they are at pest removal from grain stores. From a certain perspective they're as much farm equipment as the plow. If we had somehow lucked into say a armored hog that could be convinced to plow a field as it searched for truffles or something, we'd consider that an issue for them to free roam on every continent and decimate local wildlife.

feral hogs are a huge problem. They do decimate local wildlife.

Sure, I was just trying to tie it into more of analog of farm equipment gone awry than agricultural products.

You're totally right though.

Personally, I agree with you. But consider the other viewpoint of the person who cannot fathom keeping cats locked inside away from nature.

A lot of cats are just strays, too.

If they're feral there's not a lot we can do. We can capture them and fix them so they don't reproduce but they can't be homed and killing them would be evil.

Outdoor cats are a bit more complex but its also cruel to lock up an animal all day in a home. They need stimulation and exercise.

The real fix is to ban pet ownership. No one likes to talk about that because so many of us need pets for emotional stability and companionship, but pretty much all pet ownership is unethical. Birds getting killed really is the tip of the iceberg, as in, its the most visible part of this problem, but so much more lies below it, supporting it and creating this situation.

I love animals and don't eat them, nor do I keep them as pets. I fully believe this is the right way to go in life. People attacking this type of pet owner vs that type of pet owner are missing the forest for the trees here, and I suspect getting a nice ego boost over being the "better" animal jailer. Logically, emotionally, and ethically, pet ownership simply cannot be made humane, good for pets, or good for wildlife. The only fix is to get rid of pet culture entirely.

> pretty much all pet ownership is unethical

Convince me, because nothing you've written above has made a case. Tell me how my cats receiving daily meds for their health issues, receiving better medical care than I get, having their choice of multiple varieties of foods and treats, having perches at all heights, having a fucking three-tier custom catio is somehow abusing them and unethical.

I strongly recommend Douglas Adam’s except about the cow that wants to be eaten.

Strongly.

https://remotestorage.blogspot.com/2010/07/douglas-adamss-co...

For anyone interested.

It's not really that compelling. It's a funny scenario.

if the cow that wants to be eaten doesn’t make you feel different about conditioning and transactions I question how much you actually thought about it.

Well enlighten me then.

How could I possibly convince you of the empathy for animals you've never developed? This is like asking someone to prove a theorem to someone who has never studied math or science.

I expressed my opinion. I fully accept I cannot ever change an adult mind, especially in a venue like this and over such a complicated subject and one that the status quo prefers not discuss (animal rights, animal welfare, meat industry, dairy industry, pet trade, pet mental illness, pet inbreeding, pet breeding in general, and general animal suffering by humans) because so much of near every society is built on killing, eating, exploiting, and imprisoning animals for our pleasure. Its not the most pressing issue, but when I see dog owners fighting over cat owner over dead birds or whatever, I do like to point out that there's a major forest for the trees problem here.

And yes its futile on some level. A bit like being against cigarettes 60 years ago, or being again racism during segregation, or being against slavery at the founding of this country, etc. Collectively, we're not here yet for this, but I hope someday we are. I see so much hopeful things in regards to animal welfare in gen-z and younger millenials that I really do think change is on the horizon, maybe in 20-30 years we'll see pet ownership like we'll see the meat industry, or the crocodile purse industry, etc.

I remember PETA being mocked for decades for pointing out how "all american" and "family friendly" and "humane" places like Oceanworld/Seaworld/whatever with their captive whales were, but Joe Beer Drinker "hates bleeding heart liberals" Netflix Watcher saw Blackfish almost 10 years ago and more importantly, so did his children, and the narrative slowly changed over the years as those children became college students, and workers, and leaders, and took the voice from the older generation and said "no, this is inhumane." Its not futile to point this out. Its not rude to say that people like you are on the wrong side of history. Its okay to get downvoted the same way HN 1955 would downvote me for saying cigarettes were unhealthy and cause diseases and kill people. We're not there yet, especially in a conservative leaning forum like this one.

In other words, hello from the future, we won't look kindly on the status quo you fought so hard to preserve.

> killing them would be evil.

Would it? Killing a pest? We kill rats in cities, cockroaches, termites, gophers, moles, voles...

> The real fix is to ban pet ownership.

I'm sorry but you're out of your god damn mind. To choose not to own one, sure. But to outlaw a practice that in part defines humanity? Because you don't like it?

Pet ownership can 100% be done humanely, good for animals and good for wildlife. I know because I've done it in my own life.

Some statistics in support: https://abcbirds.org/program/cats-indoors/cats-and-birds/

Everyone says they decimate songbirds, but all the cats I see running around my neighborhood do nothing to keep the birds from waking me up in the morning. Must be the stimulus payments, damn cats these days...

Many types of bird, as well as and small reptiles and mammals.

And yet for millions of years birds and cats have co-existed.

>I still can't fathom why anyone thinks it's OK to leave cats outside to roam free.

Because my cat wants to go outside and roam arround. It's what he prefers. My other cat prefers staying inside and doesn't like going outside very much. Sure cats kill things, bring you "presents", or bring things they've caught inside but that's just part of the experience of having a cat.

I have five cats. They are indoor / outdoor (I get them inside before dark). Living in a rural (forest) area, there is a fair amount of critters around. In the last six years, there have been maybe 6-8 birds caught and about 2 chickarees (small, fast squirrels - one was caught my since deceased senior cat).

Cats are hunters for sure, but not all decimate things.

I have heard that cats murder so many birds... but just the shear math of it seems to make it likely a myth. I've watched cats outside, it takes them _forever_ to kill even 1 bird, let alone 20 a day, or whatever the claim is.

They kill mice, squirrels, rabbits, ground stuff, etc... _way_ faster and more frequently.

Some guy put a camera on his cat for a week and put the vid on YouTube. The cat killed like 50 animals in a week.

link?

the claim is 20-40 a year, which is really low sounding to me… keep in mind these are animals that can survive on their own, does 1 bird a week really seem mythical to you

[pdf] https://abcbirds.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/Loss-et-al.-...

From your link:

> We estimate that cats in the contiguous United States annually kill between 1.4 and 3.7 billion birds (median ¼ 2.4 billion) (Fig. 1a), with ~69% of this mortality caused by un-owned cats. The predation estimate for un-owned cats was higher primarily due to predation rates by this group averaging three times greater than rates for owned cats.

The range of estimate is staggering, and that it's un-owned cats are the primary issue.

But it's not _only_ the numbers I take issue with, it's the conclusion people take with it and how they communicate it. "Cats are killing BILLIONS of birds! Keep your cat in, or don't even own one."

Depends on the place, depends on the birds.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2019/07/cat-bird...

They also keep chipmunks at bay so they don't relocate your crocuses into a different spot in your yard.

After all, cats are hunting carnivores.

Crocuses in chipmunk territory sounds like the exposition of some sort of dystopian future but it's now!

My cat used to kill a bunch of rats/mice...

I think the solution to this is to just not have cats. They don't belong inside. And they're invasive most places they're kept, and their populations are artificially elevated by people housing and feeding them.

As a recent convert from dogs to cats, I have to respond with a friendly 'fuck you!' to that solution. I have never bonded with an animal more than I have my most senior cat. And it's mutual, she sleeps between my legs.

I care about ecology at large, but at home I care about my cats more.

I had one. He was great. No problems, even pooped outside on his own. I loved him, we were best friends.

Never again.

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