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Comment by nescioquid | Hacker News Reader

Every time a Firefox thread pops up on HN, I read through it hoping to learn the source of the persistent vitriol, which often comes off as entitled whining.

I once wrote a little app for myself and (what the heck) decided to release it under the GPL in case it might be of some small use to someone else. The emails I received were split between a very small fraction with useful feedback (and even a couple patches), a group of people who merely wanted to thank me, and the rest were various levels of upset and demanding. What an eye-opener that was.

What am I missing? People being defensive because they use some other browser? I'm truly mystified.

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One reason could be that active users of the browser are annoyed at the constant useless UI changes that break their workflow.

My reason is that I don't like Mozilla's false-advertising as a privacy-protecting browser which is absolutely not the case and gives a false sense of security to less savvy users that aren't aware that they need to change many settings and install specific third-party extensions to reach a semblance of privacy.

I would like to have some insights, if possible at the level of privacy reached by Firefox compared to Chrome and what the best alternative for privacy is overall in which I can keep things usable.

Honest question, since I am not into this research that much. I am using Firefox right now on the basis that Chrome prostitutes user data as much as possible.

Chrome is terrible as it sends extra metadata to Google domains which can be used to track you. It however doesn't come as a surprise as it's a browser made by an advertising company notorious for tracking users.

Firefox by default is on par with other mainstream browsers but at least most other browsers don't shout "privacy!" at every possible opportunity.

Firefox with some configuration options changed and uBlock Origin is very good but changing configuration from the defaults exposes you to extra fingerprinting, so it's a double-edged sword.

I use Firefox, and have used for a long time. My history with the browser has been marred with weird and frustrating changes that break the work flow, going back to when Firefox 2 completely changed how the URL bar worked.

I just want a browser that works. Why does the UI keep changing every other year? I would be very happy if it looked like Netscape. I don't care how the window looks, it's a tool, not a fashion accessory. I don't want to have to re-learn how to do things I've done for 20 years every few months. Why can't I have a menu at the top of the window like other windows do? Why can't my browser follow the same UI-conventions as other native applications?

I just don't get why they keep changing this stuff. It wasn't bad. It didn't get better. It just appears to have been changed for the sake of changing things. That's frustrating.

There's also a lot of hypocrisy that rubs me the wrong way. Mozilla talks big about privacy, but have you tried turning off Firefoxes telemetry? It's like half a dozen checkboxes you need to hunt down, and even then I'm not sure it's entirely disabled. Yeah I guess it's only bad when other people are doing it.

Just use Seamonkey if you want it to look like Netscape, surely.

I actually do sometimes, but its CSS engine is sadly a bit out of date :-/

This is a good point. SeaMonkey is still maintained to this day, and it's basically that: Firefox, but it doesn't really change.

To add my anecdote to yours, I've been with Firefox for some time and I weathered the changes fine. I might not be crazy about Web in general, but Firefox has been good to me and I have not found the choices they make to break my workflows. I guess I fall within the target audience of their changes.

> It just appears to have been changed for the sake of changing things

Unfortunately it just seems to be the way things work now. People joke all the time about UI/UX designers needing to justify their salary, I guess it's not too far from the truth.

It's weird because Firefox is has a lot of fairly basic UX problems, such as imposing mobile conventions on a native desktop application instead of following native conventions.

Besides the missing top menu bar already mentioned, desktop applications don't have hamburger buttons and material design-aesthetics, looks really out of place. If you open a sub-menu in that menu, the entire menu is replaced with the submenu, that's also not how desktop menus work.

I hate the sub-menu thing as well. Because of the way it works currently, a sub-menu doesn't auto-expand when you hover over the parent menu, you have to explicitly click on it, and same thing when you have to go back. I have to access the "Reopen all tabs" function from time to time, and I can never remember where that menu item is, so I have to click around to find it, and have to explicitly click to go back to the previous menu when I make a wrong guess.

I miss being able to put a traditional menu bar next to the URL bar (and with the "Help" menu removed). I've trimmed the excessive whitespace with custom CSS, but it still wastes more vertical pixels than it used to do several years ago. There's no reason the URL bar needs to stretch all the way across the screen. Human-readable URLs are not that long, so the space could be put to better use.

> Yeah I guess it's only bad when other people are doing it.

The "other people" don't do Telemetry like Mozilla does. You're making an apples to oranges comparison.

I just don't want my software spying on me, and I don't care if you pinky swear it's nothing to worry about, because literally everyone is saying that.

This should be opt-in, not opt-out in multiple screens and different dialogs and two about:config-settings.

>I don't care how the window looks, it's a tool

But don't you? Your entire post is complaining about how it "looks" :^)

I would be absolutely fine if it just stayed the same. I can deal with a crappy UI, what I don't want is to have to constantly search for things in that UI.

Constant, needless, routine-breaking UI or UX changes. Really difficult to not get pissed off when features or hotkeys you've used for 10+ years are suddenly changed without warning and for no remotely justifiable reason.

Unlike most open source code that's published online, it's damn near impossible to just go an re-implement your own browser if all available ones are not to your liking. Up until somewhat recently, Firefox has been the best browser for tech minded and privacy focused people, but it seems like Mozilla has lost their focus and are implementing features that their user base find questionable. I'll admit that some other features are very welcome, like containers and the like. But I do understand that their core userbase feel disappointed and whenever they see their best choice in browsers move all the more closer to the other subpar choices.

Specifically, people feel it was a let down to throw away the layout engine that was rewritten in Rust and drop the efforts to modernize other components too. There's a lot of people who feel let down with the deprecation and removal of support for older, more powerful plugin APIs.

And as for writing a browser on your own, lots of competent developers might implement an HTML renderer. I don't think a single person could implement a browser that's capable running youtube, banking websites, amazon, a fully features javascript VM, all the modern sandboxing and various web APIs (that now even include Bluetooth and USB).

I don't think bringing pitchforks to Mozilla will make them write better software or listen to users more, but I don't want to de-legitimize the concerns that some of their core audience might have. IMO, Firefox is still the best browser to use. Chrome and it's derivatives, please go.

Firefox's rapidly shrinking userbase likes to shoot themselves in the foot. There's always somebody whining about a tiny UI change they really liked from 7 years ago. The fact that the organization has existential problems seems less relevant.

Sometimes Mozillians help with the self destruction. Like last week, when Mozilla reminded people they take donations, including in crypto. Luckily, ex-Mozillians came to the rescue to carve a line in the sand on Twitter. Absolutely unacceptable. An online mob forms, likely of people whom never donated a cent, and Mozilla is pressured to stop accepting crypto.

They had been accepting it since 2014.

It doesn't matter if you hate crypto. If somebody else has crypto and donates this to Mozilla, that is a good thing for Mozilla. If one is bothered by environmental concerns, Mozilla did not mine the crypto. They are on the receiving end of a transaction, one that now will take place elsewhere.

Who needs enemies with friends like this.

I think Firefox is great. Running it here on FreeBSD, Mac, Windows. It works well.

Only thing I mind a bit is the hidden compact theme which makes me worried it'll disappear completely at some point. The standard mode is too big imo. But the way it is now in about:config is fine

But the browser works well, renders well and I love the E2E encrypted sync. I don't use any other browser anymore. No problems with crashes or sites not working.

Just wanted to say that because people who are satisfied tend to be less vocal :)

It is annoyance at Mozilla routinely eliminating features that had made Firefox better than competition, along with random UI churn that add up to make it less usable.

Decisions are made at Mozilla by a crew with only business school management training, and no personal awareness of engineering processes or possibilities. It is a lot like what has happened at Boeing.

That said, ten years ago it crashed all the damn time. So there's that.

Firefox is important for the web. Mozilla is severely mismanaged, and that fact is ruining Firefox.

As an example, they keep asking for donations which they are not spending on Firefox development. It is that kind of stuff that people such as me are tired of. This has nothing to do with your experience releasing GPL code.

Pretty sure Mozilla's CEO isn't particularly well liked. She has a wage in the millions, which she insists is only fair for some family related reason, while Firefox' userbase has tanked.

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