Laughter is yet another trait some might see as typically human, yet here we are.
And ever since we have had language (not even that long — ~50k years or so) we have been using it to tell stories about ourselves that separate us more and more from the rest of the world. As if all of the beautiful things that make us human stemmed from symbolic reasoning. And yet we see every day: jealousy in chimps, maternal love in cows, play in dogs, compassion in elephants, frustration in cats, curiosity in pigs.
The story that we tell ourselves about our specialness gives us a moral free pass to treat animals how we want. Which is why I think these articles tend to polarize. It’s because the implication is that if animals are really so much like us, we’ll have to come up with a much better justification for treating them how we do. For now our reasons have hinged on their supposed lack of ability to feel emotion (or even pain!). In the future it might well be because they cannot symbolically reason. We have to have some reason, in the end, for treating animals the way we do, or otherwise face a moral crisis.
I do wonder how the pre-humanist humans felt about this, like tribal people. I know they had few qualms about killing animals but at the same time assigned human qualities to them. It might have been that surviving without meat was simply impossible, which is an argument one could not easily make today.
The numbers of connections and configurations of neurons is staggering, and still well beyond the neat matrix-array-based of modern AI. ...but at the core, I've come to realize that we continue to be stimulation based creatures. What we think at any given moment is a product of what we were thinking a moment before and the sensory stimulus we are constantly receiving.
It occurs to me that when we create an AI that surpasses us, that that AI will likely create a fundamentally different way of thinking. Something not based on external stimulus and the churning of our thoughts - but something more purposeful and ordered.
And THAT entity will be the ultimate output of humanity. We cannot imagine what it will do, or what it will do with us (probably nothing - it will probably just leave the Earth). ...but I also imagine that we are not the first in the universe to create such an entity, and so there must be other massive timeless entities in space.
Perhaps they live in the darkest parts of the universe, in quiet contemplation, or perhaps they search for each other to resist cosmic expansion. Perhaps they peacefully merge, or collaborate, or war with one another on billion-year timescales.
It's a great mystery that will forever be beyond our level of intelligence. Unless, of course, the AI wants to upload us and bring us along for the ride. ...but that notion is probably just wishful thinking and hubris. It would be like us keeping a pet fungus in our pocket so it can enjoy a day at the office.
In the happy sorts of sci-fi, that gives us something like the Culture from Iain Banks; it could also be a "replace the humans with other AI" situation.
I doubt we see it in our lifetimes, though.
I suppose there are three possibilities.
1. It leaves the Earth, and either remains limited in size or expands in a more advantageous solar system(s). 2. It stays on the Earth forever, permanently limiting its computational capacity. 3. It expands to include sub-entities that both stay and leave in some cosmic distributed computing organism.
I suppose the three possibilities above can be reduced to one fundamental question: Will the AI expand to be interstellar/intergalactic in nature, or will it remain limited?
Is there a fundamental unending utility to ever-greater computing power? ...and, if so, would there be detectable signs of such expanding computers in the cosmos? This last question is important both for our own forecasting of the future, but also to interpret inter-AI-entity relations, because presumably if AIs do NOT get along in space, they likely hide signs of their existence.
One thing I'm convinced of - organic meat bags are not the future of space-faring intelligence.
We might be on a completely wrong path with our current approach too, difference of degree vs difference of kind, we don't know much about the brain and so far our binary way of computing isn't really promising, especially not in term of mimicking or surpassing the human brain, it might just not be the right tool.
Or even a squirrel, take robotics for example or hell even an AI simulated animal, the AI don't even come close in it's ability to problem solve and react to novel situations. A squirrel powered by a few acorns is able to achieve things that even our most powerful supercomputers consuming 8.2 megawatts could never do.
Problem is we are currently limited by our computer architecture, brains operate in a wildly different way, for one it's continuous/non discrete collection of neurons that in themselves are quite complex.
IMO true AI will need to closer to a network of analog computing parts.
How's the computing power of a squirrel's brain compared to our best AI in terms of "number of system states"? I'm not in the field, so I'll elaborate my poorly-phrased question below:
My understanding is that you can calculate the number of "system states" of a computer by calculating how many different combinations of open-closed its logic gates can support. It's a mind-bogglingly huge number, but no matter what, the set of "all possible open-closed gate combinations" will be larger than the set of "the smartest, best simulation of an AI we have".
So--if memories, instincts, etc. are defined by things like "angle of neuron twist, number of transmitter molecules fired at second 0.0001, age of neuron in nS", etc., then just how many more "system states" can a squirrel's brain hold then a supercomputer can?
Squishy human brains connect in all directions - there's no "layer" to every thought. It creates feedback loops, intricate pathways, as well as direct connections.
Modern AI tech is fundamentally dumbs down intelligence by this notion of layered matrix operations.
It is done for scalability because matrices can be computed easily on a GPU, but it's not the same architecture.
What you are talking about sounds like deep learning. What I'm talking about is the hardware. Your tone makes it sound like you think you are correcting me, I'd like to inform you that you are not.
And as humans I see nothing wrong with eating other animals (outside of animal cruelty, e.g. factory farms). As animals, we naturally eat each other. If there is something immoral about this, does that mean a rabbit is morally superior to a fox?
If we admit the idea that some lives can have negative value for example if they consist solely of suffering it would be OK to breed kid burgers so long as they had a pleasant existence up until slaughter at 7 followed by a quick trip to McKid.
I suspect that my moral philosophy and likely yours is simply insufficient to deal with hypothetical persons and we ought to simply reason about how to treat actual beings that exist.
If there were a human serial killer killing people via a projectile energy weapon that always instantly killed someone from a long distance before they had any idea what was happening, I don't think you'd argue for a greatly reduced sentence due to their humane method of disposal. If there were an ancient human civilization that went on hunting trips to kill and eat humans in other villages because they believed human flesh was the most prized meat, and they defended it by saying that they were probably all going to soon die of war or starvation or disease anyway, I don't think you'd just go "oh yeah true" without batting an eye.
The sole reason - the necessary and sufficient reason - hunters find hunting justifiable is they attribute no moral value to the lives of non-human animals. Anything else is self-serving rationalization. If you attribute no moral value to them, that puts you in the company of almost everyone who's ever lived, but just state it plainly instead of trying to wiggle around it with mental gymnastics.
> The sole reason - the necessary and sufficient reason - hunters find hunting justifiable is they attribute no moral value to the lives of non-human animals.
Into this:
> The sole reason meat-eaters find eating meat justifiable is they attribute no moral value to the lives of non-human animals.
Animals do not have similar food-providing mechanisms. When you eat an animal, or part of an animal, it'd dead. It doesn't grow back. It wasn't designed to.
All nutrition comes from plants (or the microbiology around them). All protein comes from plants. Anyone who equates the barbary of eating animals with eating plants is choosing to deceive themselves and others.
The amount of convincing arguments for needlessly causing suffering in beings that clearly experience it are vanishingly small.
Some things die so others may live. That is the way it always has been, and always will be, regardless if some subset of humans decides that "that's immoral". I will continue to eat meat and hunt animals and feel zero guilt. I do not care that something was killed for food when... I dunno, grass juice and pitaya could theoretically sustain me instead (lol). Animals taste good and are calorically dense. That's 100% convincing enough for me.
Peter Singer is an excellent starting point for exploring the dimensions of morality for eating animal flesh.
I can't argue against your own sense of guilt, since it's possible for some people to feel not at all [0]. Your other comment about willingly and guiltlessly drowning mice [1] in a bucket is not indicative of a healthy mind.
1. I drowned two rodents that lived, shit, probably bred, and carried diseases through my walls and attic
2. I eat meat and feel no guilt
And then used that to call me a psychopath. Thank you for the amusement. Goodbye.
Please try to research a more philosophical approach to morality and ethics. Shutting down in the face of an alternative viewpoint is hardly a productive approach to conversation. Cheers.
Right.
>And as humans I see nothing wrong with eating other animals (outside of animal cruelty, e.g. factory farms).
Bears can't have moral culpability because they aren't intellectually sophisticated enough, much like how a theoretical profoundly mentally disabled human, or an infant human, wouldn't be morally culpable for killing someone. The "mens rea" can't be established. However, nearly all adult humans do possess the capacity for moral reasoning.
>As animals, we naturally eat each other.
Even though bears and humans are animals, and animals often eat each other, we're the only animals blessed/cursed with the knowledge that if we were to maul someone to death, they'd experience terrible pain and suffering, their life would be cut short, and their family would mourn their death and lose resource support and potentially suffer and die themselves. If a bear had those thoughts, they would be morally culpable, but they almost certainly don't.
>If there is something immoral about this, does that mean a rabbit is morally superior to a fox?
No, because a rabbit's moral reasoning is in the same class as a bear's and a fox's, and not a human's.
In contrast to humans, animals such as dogs, cats, birds, and fish are commonly held NOT to be moral agents or moral persons. In the jungle, a lion eating another animal or killing a human for any reason is not considered morally wrong or blameworthy.
Pet owners frequently chastise their pets for undesirable behaviors such as urinating on the carpet, digging in the garden, or failing to obey a command, but yelling "bad dog" is not usually interpreted as moral agency. One could argue, however, that the owner is engaging in moral expectation or anthropomorphism.
I see lots wrong with it, since it creates pain and bad life experiences. This bothers me. But that's also a choice, of what kind of morality you embrace.
Suffering is inevitable, abuse is not. The best we can do in life is minimize abuse while maximizing enjoyment.
Meat is not immoral, abuse is. It's really that easy. Unfortunately, most meat comes from abused beings.
I also strongly reject the idea that we need 'our specialness' to 'justify eating things and how we treat them'. I don't need justification beyond: 'That thing is made of meat. I can eat meat. I'm going to kill it and eat it'. There is no moral crisis. Things die. Things get eaten.
Just 2 days ago, I caught 2 mice that had been living a nice life in my attic (because I was lazy for a few weeks). I drowned them in a bucket. Is there a moral crisis there? No. They were vermin, living where I decided they cannot (because I live in that space). There is no difference between that and a scorpion killing small spiders trying to spin webs in its burrow.
I also think you've touched on something: We created distinctions that 'separates us more and more from the rest of the world'. If what you say is true, then they're simply illusory. If humans are so like animals (indeed we simply are the apex animal), an attempt to force morality onto our natural impulses and diets is absurd. Therefore, killing and eating anything we can reasonbly digest is a natural behavior of the human animal. Returning to the rabbit-fox example... well, clearly you can see meat-moralilizing falls apart in a hurry.
Total aside, I think it's funny that many 'classic herbivores' like deer, horses, moose, etc, will absolutely eat other animals if the opportuntiy presents it. Vegetarians and vegans have chosen a dietary extreme that even the animals they strive to protect/save/whatever don't display.
I am made of meat -- hopefully we don't cross paths!
“Moral law is an invention of mankind for the disenfranchisement of the powerful in favor of the weak. Historical law subverts it at every turn. A moral view can never be proven right or wrong by any ultimate test. A man falling dead in a duel is not thought thereby to be proven in error as to his views. His very involvement in such a trial gives evidence of a new and broader view. The willingness of the principals to forgo further argument as the triviality which it in fact is and to petition directly the chambers of the historical absolute clearly indicates of how little moment are the opinions and of what great moment the divergences thereof. For the argument is indeed trivial, but not so the separate wills thereby made manifest. Man's vanity may well approach the infinite in capacity but his knowledge remains imperfect and howevermuch he comes to value his judgments ultimately he must submit them before a higher court. Here there can be no special pleading. Here are considerations of equity and rectitude and moral right rendered void and without warrant and here are the views of the litigants despised. Decisions of life and death, of what shall be and what shall not, beggar all question of right. In elections of these magnitudes are all lesser ones subsumed, moral, spiritual, natural.” -- Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian, or the Evening Redness in the West
I am extremely thankful moral law was invented. I invented my own, just like everyone else has for thousands of years. Our individual Human morals generally have enough overlap to keep things working. But they aren't true "laws".
The linguistic ability of most Humans is at the level of GPT3 - probably why statistical approaches work so well in NLP.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2007/04/16/the-interprete...
Does emoting about a claim make it true somehow?
I find myself in that weird cult, despite personally having an animal free diet for decades.
In the same way we might be uncomfortable eating dolphins.
To take one "small" example, 7 billion male[0] chicks a year are put into a "macerator", aka "chick grinding machine". 7 billion. I don't think it takes a very "low threshold" to find this barbaric, just look at it and think about it. If that's not "barbaric" (whatever that means exactly), I'm not sure what would be.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_culling
> So in the end it is not so obvious to me that we will see eating animals as babaric
Many people already do, and have for many years.
[0] "the males of egg-laying chickens are killed as soon as possible after hatching and sexing to reduce financial losses incurred by the breeder."
That's what people do in every ethical aspect, we circumvent it and pretend it's easy to solve, and then criticize the people that can't circumvent it due to some environmental issue. When that people is on the past, there isn't even a problem with this.
In the very long term maybe. But even if cheap, good quality artifixial meat becomes avaiable by tomorrow - killing animals for meat simply out of tradition - will go on a long time.
Edit to add: The bigger picture is that for a set of practices, even if they still occur on a smaller scale than in the past, that's probably strictly an improvement.
I try to use the “Alt meat” Version or fish when possible though to reduce meat consumption. But I’m incapable of giving it up altogether at this point.
I do find the alt - meat to be good enough for cooked meat though; I think there is a huge market here.
Originally I was reducing my meat intake for health reasons but thinking about it more and more it does seem to be a cruel thing to kill animals for meat, and doesn't seem necessary. I still do it at a reduced rate because I'm basically not strong willed enough and I want to be part of society, which has very few qualms about raising animals for slaughter. I also can't deny the stuff tastes good, and one thing I've seen with addictive traits is it's very hard to separate your desires from your moral judgement: if you want something, you will think of an excuse to get it. So now I just acknowledge the hypocrisy and eat a bit of meat now and again.
One loophole I thought about was wild animals. Maybe someone has thought about this more than me, but wild fish and roaming animals would be condemned to either predation, disease, or starvation if we didn't hunt them. Does that change the moral calculus? I'm not sure.
I guess what I mean is that (in short), animals that are bred to be eaten didn't have to exist in the first place, we are literally creating them and making them suffer, both in life and in death. So we're creating suffering out of nothing.
Animals that live in the wild are gonna meet a bad end regardless, so how much are we creating that suffering?
Any creation of life is creating suffering. The first Noble Truth of Buddhism is that there is suffering. Accepting that truth the rational action would be to minimize the suffering. Factory farms cause suffering to its inhabitants everyday, much more than the suffering caused from being born. Watch Earthlings [1] to learn about how animals at farms get treated.
[1] https://vimeo.com/209647801?embedded=true&source=vimeo_logo&...
But that's capitalism for you, we basically have meat factories now, we have to make it cheap and in mass quantities no matter the "moral" aspect of it
https://gabryant.scholar.ss.ucla.edu/wp-content/uploads/site...
-- you'll see that a variety of felines (including domestic cats) are among the species listed as having play vocalizations.
To be honest, a lot of meat still tastes kind of gross to me. Give me fried tofu over baked chicken in a salad. Heck if I’m just having a a boring burger for a random lunch on a Tuesday, give me an Impossible patty over some crappy fast food beef.
That said if there’s a dish that’s enhanced by meat (say a Wagyu steak or a pastrami sandwich) then sure, I’ll eat that a few times a week.
At least so far, this hasn’t caused me any stress.
Depends what you mean by intelligence. Ravens and chimps are almost as good as humans at causal reasoning, ie. correlating and inferring causes and effects from observations. This seems to fall under a typical understanding of "intelligence".
Where we differ is that we can communicate such knowledge between individuals very effectively, and across generations, which seems to yield a compounding effect. I think small, compounding network effects like this are behind apparent human "superiority".
The best way to get the right answer on the Internet is not to ask a question, it's to post the wrong answer. https://github.com/dwmkerr/hacker-laws#cunninghams-law
Culture list from https://github.com/peterburk/sortlikes based on a manual categorisation of friends' liked Facebook pages, when trying to learn Mandarin while living in Taiwan a few years ago.
Unique to humans:
{ Art, Dance, Photography, Theatre, Banking, Business (Management), Causes (NGOs), Comedy, Cooking, Clothing, Driving, Movies, Music, News, Politics, Religion, Sport, Transport, Software, Hardware }
Shared with other species:
{ Accommodation, Children, Cleaning, Construction, Drinking, Education, Games, Health, International, Military, Pets }
News is essentially gossip writ large, so if other animals have language then they definitely have this.
Banking, photography, driving, movies, software and hardware are all recent human inventions, so it's kinda irrelevant whether other animals have those
Clothing may be unique to humans, but historically not all humans have used clothes.
Bird and whale song is probably music. Birds do courtship dances. IMO this probably counts as art.
Again if other animals have language they might also have comedy, religion, theatre - without knowing that they don't have language then we can't rule those out.
Business - not sure. If other animals have trade then I guess that's business? There's some evidence of exchange among other animals, but I'm not sure it counts as "trade" https://theconversation.com/what-trade-deals-can-teach-us-ab...
All that's left unique to us is cooking.
I suspect your first list could be reduced to one definite - "fire" - and two maybes "language" and "trade". I'd bet that maybe animals have language, but that we haven't deciphered it yet
Seems we may not be the only ones that cook after all.
https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2015/06/03/411748170/ch...
https://www.npr.org/sections/krulwich/2014/04/01/297686709/t...
Take an average human being and drop them at an island. Now we have a "base" human being, the pure species if you will. Things like humour, sarcasm and ethics have lost all meaning now, which shows they're not special at all.
The typical urban person would probably die at the island as they can't hunt or farm. Somehow this pretty critical base knowledge was not passed on.
In the more optimistic scenario, the island people adapt to relearn basic survival, which would rank them as social hunters. Which is fine, but not that special.
Importantly, these smart hunters would be unable to reinvent even the basic necessities of the modern world. Because even a human with 20 years of education doesn't know how anything works, they only make use of things. Again, the knowledge is NOT passed on.
So it's not us that is special, it's our modern world that is special. Which is situational and the result of a handful of critical inventions, many less than a century old.
These inventions were not guaranteed or destined to be. There's even historic cases of anti-development in humans, where a population failed to pass on learned techniques and tools, after which subsequent generations became increasingly less "sophisticated". None of which is surprising, as for the entire existence of our species, minus 10K years (agriculture), we were social hunters. Not god-like creatures. The average modern human being is less than a social hunter when the electricity goes down.
This is a compact and ex post facto unsurprising list. Primates, social mammals, domesticated mammals and certain birds. The line between us and social apex predators (cats, dogs and certain birds, all of whom our ancestors allied with ages ago) are blurry. The line between us and most species are stark.
In humans, humour is a debugging process, which is fundamentally rational. The very fact that a statement can be correct or erroneous is the basis of language and therefore education and social evolution.
> there are hardly any fundamental differences between humans and other animals
Evolution is true. But... the ESA and NASA have sent a space telescope to a stable position at Lagrange point 2, and the PRC has a rover exploring the dark side of the Moon.
Humans do have greatness.
Human animals have very similar tools to those of other social animals. We're just privileged to somehow be able to stack up our experiences to create science and technology. But isolated tribes in the amazon could never send telescopes to space.
So we're only special due to our circunstance. Our bodies are barely fit to stand and walk all day, we're pushing the limits of where we're supposed to live, and our diets are all wrong. But we make it work because our ancestors developed knowledge sharing to a global level.
Were just very lucky priviledged apes.
I always find it amusing that we evolved brains, developed computers to crudely mimics our brain, created words to describe said computers and we now use these words on us as if we were computers ourselves... it's almost insulting, we're not computers. Your memory has nothing to do with ram/ssds, your brain isn't a cpu, these are all one way over simplified analogies
Egg zachary. You are amused by something, you explained where you think you see an error.
You can choose a different verb to avoid "debug", but you just provided a suitable illustration of humour as an application[1] of reason.
[1] tech pun not intended, but fitting
In human children this ability (to realise that other people have their own point of view) is called "theory of mind", IIRC.
IOW crows can think about what other crows are thinking.
This implies at least basic theory of mind and thinking about thinking. This wasn't the only evidence btw.
Before that we had a different dog, also a mutt. He was pretty aggressive and had a separate fenced area inside our backyard. There was a cherry tree just outside that fenced area and our cat liked to sit there, but only if the dog is locked in the fenced area. That dog learnt to close the gate to look as if it's locked and sit in there waiting for the cat to climb the tree, AND wait for us to go to school/work, and only then he would leave the fenced area and bark under the tree at the cat for hours. We only knew thanks to neighbors.
In general theory of mind is very useful to any social animal and especially to predators, so I don't think it's as unique to humans as some people say.