The Charles Mingus CAT-alog (1972)
charlesmingus.com
charlesmingus.com
All to say that some cats don't need any kind of training to use the toilet.
I have no doubts that he would pee in the toilet as well, but I can't leave the toilets open because we have dogs around.
(Although, now that I'm typing this, I suppose we could install cat-doors on the bathroom doors to let the cat in, and keep the dogs out...)
The sink/bathtub peeing is definitely gross and not ideal. But, not as gross as it sounds. He very very precisely pees directly down the drain. The smell is almost unnoticeable. So unnoticeable that it took us a lot of time to figure out he was even doing it, since he sometimes pees in the box as well. The main danger to him peeing in the sinks is that it will make it difficult for us to know if he has a blockage as we can not monitor his urine output.
(I am not "noseblind" to cat pee smell, as far as I can tell. The litterbox is in the basement and if I neglect to clean it on a given day and there is pee in there, I can smell it from upstairs. I've also asked trusted people like my brother to verify there's no cat pee smell in the house! He's not afraid to give me harsh opinions...)
A lot of pet owners don't seem to realize the pet smells in their house because they're so used to them.
You see this a lot. People who live near smelly garbage dumps, in smelly cities, near farms that use a lot of manure, etc. They get used to it and stop noticing it.
I think we all experience some level of this. Everybody's home has a distinctive (usually benign) smell. But you usually don't think about it or notice it. Until you step into somebody else's home.
Hopefully my current flat doesn't smell like cat pee.
Hopefully my current flat doesn't smell like cat pee.
But I mean, if you're emptying and changing the litter regularly I'm sure it's fine! At least that's what I tell myself if my brother hasn't been around lately...
As someone who's never been a dog owner, what's the problem with dogs and toilets?
Especially if the cat doesn't learn to flush like Charles Mingus' cat.
Here's one of my absolute faves, Pithecanthropus Erectus.
The whole record has little bits of studio talk before and after some of the recordings and you can hear Mingus feeling really shy and vulnerable playing alone. You can even hear it in his playing, I think. Pretty remarkable. Love that guy.
(I can hum this juuuust about well enough for my own purposes. It took a lot of practice.)
("The shoes of the fisherman's wife are some jive-ass slippers" being the title of a Mingus composition)
I've never actually made it
!!!!!!!
Cats' urinary habits are important to keep an eye on. A change in urination volume or frequency can be the sign of a critical issue that requires veterinary attention. You just can't easily track urine volume if the cat is going to the toilet, even if they don't flush.
With a litterbox, you can get an idea of what their normal clump size is and notice if that changes. Regarding frequency, maybe you can hear your cat jump on the toilet, but I'm not sure it's as reliable as hearing them repeatedly scratching the litterbox. If you are out during the day and come home, with a litterbox you still notice the pee clumps to get an idea of how much they've peed - unlike with a toilet.
One aspect where the toilet may actually be better is that you _might_ be able to spot blood easier in the water.
I also wanted to train my first cat to use the toilet, until he suffered from a urinary blockage as a kitten. If he'd been using the toilet, I likely wouldn't have noticed that anything was wrong until it was far too late. Blockage is more likely in male cats, and it is _not_ an uncommon problem. It is already far too easy to not notice if a cat is blocked if you're not careful, and it doesn't take long at all to become life threatening. I believe a toilet would only exacerbate this risk.
If I see blood in the litter, no clumps, or clumps that are smaller than usual (or heck, even much bigger than usual), I know to pay extra attention to my cat and either book a vet appointment or go to the emergency room. It's allowed me to catch bouts of infection, crystals, and idiopathic cystitis early (all of which he is now more prone to after his initial urinary problems). A cat's kidneys and urinary system can also be impacted by stress levels, with unexplained straining and bladder inflammation thought to be in some cases caused by stress. Having them pee in a toilet in my opinion decreases visibility of a very important and sensitive health factor.
Is there something in modern cats’ diet / habits that makes them more susceptible to disease? These concerns read like hypochondria, coming from this background.
Diet can be a contributing factor, yes. I mention it a bit in this comment, with a link to a journal issue that talks about these issues in dogs and cats, including some information on frequency and contributing factors: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29864189
My experience with six cats over the last 25 years is that the outdoor cats lived much longer and got sick less than my inside cats.
I have no idea why, but i don't think it's diet, because they've all eaten the same food.
Heh, that's what you think...
Ever watched one of those lighthearted documentaries where they GPS tag and attach cameras to a whole neighbourhood's cats? They mostly wandered around eating each other's food :D
Another factor for this observation (that I also made) could be genetics - generally "pure-bred" (aka more likely to suffer from disease linked to genetic factors) are more likely to be strictly-indoors while outdoor cats are more often "mongrels".
Generally speaking, indoor cats tend to live much longer. Generally they make it well into their teens. Of course it all depends I guess. Indoor/outdoor cats living in an ideal rural situation probably have the happiest and healthiest lives of all. (Although, of course, depending on local fauna they may eat a lot of birds, so there's that cost to consider too...)
For an indoor cat, I strongly suspect there's a problem with canned food sometimes. When I had a cat a long while back, every so often you'd open a can of cat food and it'd have worms, or the cat would (after being extremely excited as you were opening the can), sniff and propel himself away from the food. You'd look and notice it was off (like it had something crawling in it).
The cheap supermarket dog/cat food can hardly be called a food. It is an epitome of bottom line optimization. Grain and the "by-products" - frequently the 1st/2nd ingredients - which is hides/hooves/beaks/horns/etc. flooded with industrial chemicals back at the China's giga-meat-factories and powdered.
On this particular cat toilet training trick: cats are in fact quite particular about litterbox -- where it's positioned, how safe it feels inside it, how it smells. A human toilet is decidedly an unnatural setup for cats, and who knows what can happen. Maybe the cat learns to use it but constantly feels anxious about it (e.g. slipper surface). Maybe it will avoid pooping until it gets really uncomfortable. All of these can't be good for its health.
It's better than scooping litter every day, by a factor of 3-5x. But it's not magical and wonderful.
We had one, and, as usual, got busy and forgot to clean it. The end result was a spotless, odor free and empty self-cleaning litterbox (all the litter had been auto-removed) and a male cat with a urinary tract infection.
I totally support "healthy", but natural, what is natural for a species that has evolved to use intelligence to prevail over the natural world (in this case, the intelligence of their owners, but still)?
No my friend, our purpose on this earth is to co-evolve the most unnatural cat to the point where they are ready to take over as the dominant inteligent species of this side of the galaxy.
I think it would be better to say "The modern housecat is just about as natural as a modern human living in a modern house". Both species adapted to modern human environment.
Also, if a cat falls in the toilet, it’s traumatizing, and they may start pooping and peeing in other places which you don’t want.
There is an issue of Royal Canin Veterinary Focus that focuses on lower urinary tract disease in cats and dogs: https://vetfocus.royalcanin.com/en/-/media/vet-focus/en-us-p...
There are interesting sections on Feline Idiopathic Cystitis and blockage, which talk about water management as well. On page 23, there is a table called "Table 1. Clinical features of cats diagnosed with cystitis with (n = 8,220) or without (7,862) concurrent pyuria in 2012."
At the bottom of the table are a few rows on diet. ~3.5% of cats in the sample were on a canned-only diet. ~19.2% were on a mix of dry and canned food. 77.3% were on a dry-only diet (percentages slightly varied for those with pyuria).
When I hear other cat owners feeding only dry I tell them this. They don’t usually want to change, likely believing that wouldnt happen to their cat, but at least they’re informed.
One thing that's cool is there are special cat litters now that change color when blood is present.
Did you notice warning signs in days prior? I typically don’t check litter every day so possible I missed subtle signs earlier
* Frequent litter box visits
* Excessively grooming "down there"
* And finally the yowling that you heard
It was really unfortunate because mine was blocked after an otherwise routine surgery, after which the vet warned us that it might take him longer to go to the litter box! So at first we thought nothing of it and thought him not having peed yet was normal post-surgery recovery.
But I did learn to recognize the signs after that, since they kept sending him home while he was still blocked. In general, the potential signs of a blockage are pretty much the same as potential signs of infection or other urinary issues. I suggest watching/listening for the following:
* Frequent trips to the box. If a cat keeps going in repeatedly, something might be up. They either can't get pee out, or have some irritation that is making them need like they need to keep going to the box. This can start with just going a bit more frequently than you're used to and escalate to stepping in and out of the box every few minutes. Note that this can also be a sign of constipation, which can also be bad (but tends to be less critical than urinary blockage in the beginning). Usually cats have a different stance when they pee vs poop, so you can kind of tell what they're trying to do if you pay attention. Sometimes, if they keep straining to pee and can't, they might actually resort to trying to poop instead, which won't help and just keep them coming back to the box.
* Low or no volume. These frequent trips, in case of blockage, will result in no pee coming out, or maybe just drops. This _could_ also mean that the cat simply has no pee left in them and it is some other urinary tract irritation causing them to feel like they keep having to go, but that is really only safe to assume if you've _seen_ them pee a good amount recently. Usually when they are just irritated, they'll still get _something_ out when they go back in. If when you get home all you find is abnormally tiny clumps or drops, it can be a sign that something is off.
* Vocalization. If they are vocalizing more than usual, especially in or around the box. It can be a sign of pain (this sounds like what you used to catch it, which is great).
* Blood in the urine. I know it can be hard to see with many litters, but sometimes you can spot blood either in the urine, drops on or around the box, or even on the cat's fur after they go. This is more a sign of bladder irritation than blockage, but the two often go hand in hand, and one can progress to the other, so it's time to see a vet.
* Trying to go outside of the box. If they are in pain or unable to pee in the box, they may resort to trying to find another spot. If you find your cat peeing or trying to pee outside of the box when they're otherwise litter trained, something might be wrong.
* Repeated licking of nether regions, especially coupled with one or more of the above. If they are in pain or irritated, they may keep licking and fussing with the area.
* Eventually, not going to the box at all. The bladder gets distended, and nerves are damaged. This is very dangerous. The bladder is full, but the cat loses the ability to feel when they need to pee. My vets have said that as a rule of thumb, if a cat does not pee at least once in 24 hours, to get to the emergency vet asap.
There can also be cat-specific, individual signs of irritation or pain that you'd know best as the owner. For example, I noticed when my cat has trouble comfortably peeing he will start drinking a lot more water. I am not sure if this is common for all cats, but it's one thing I keep an eye on: if he keeps going between the box and the water bowl, I know something is up.
In general, a lot of it is quite individual. Cats do sometimes just change up their pee schedule. I might come home and find that mine hasn't peed at all when he normally would, but that doesn't mean I need to rush to the emergency just based on that one thing. I judge by how he looks, how he's acting, and just keep an extra eye out for any additional signs (and pay attention for when he pees next).
We can also learn to feel the fullness of the bladder through the abdomen, and many cat owners (especially those dealing with disabled cats) do. Apparently it's quite easy, and my vet would do this pretty regularly when needed, but I unfortunately never managed to get the hang of it myself (though I still try sometimes if I suspect something is wrong).
I've had to collect so many samples over the years, and the easiest way is to hold a measuring cup/spoon under the cat when he/she goes into the box and squats. When I hear mine go to the box, I just walk over slowly and chill in the area (act casual). Then, when he looks committed and gets into position, I squat next to the box and hold the cup under him. You can collect a good amount of very clean urine this way (of course not sterile like cystocentesis, but for most purposes it is perfectly fine). It takes some practice to find the right place to hold the spoon depending on your cat's anatomy, as you have to estimate where the pee will end up going.
In another part of this thread I mentioned having a Litter Robot, which this technique is not really possible with. I bring out a backup open litterbox when I need to collect a sample, for easy access.
The summary of the book is "Eat less, eat fresher, and move more and more often"
Perhaps with cats the movement part maybe not be as applicable, but the eating fresher (no processed foods) and eating less would make a huge difference it a cats life. Maybe someone will write Forever Cat?
For my cats, I usually opt for variety. I try to pick high protein wet food of different types, including nutritionally balanced raw, within their individual requirements and tastes. At the same time, I follow my vet's advice and always have urinary wet food handy. Usually they get one pouch of urinary food that helps prevent and dissolve a certain type of bladder crystal in addition to normal wet food each day.
[0] https://www.waltham.com/news-events/nutrition/cats-can-benef...
I wish I could extrapolate from this to figure out what else will age well when designing UIs.
Not sure I want to share the bathroom with our cats.
We just got a litter robot last week it's pretty amazing. We set it up in a hall closet to get the two litter boxes out of the laundry room. It should pay for itself in 3-4 months by using less litter than our two traditional litter boxes (yesterdays news litter).
It does require a small amount of maintenance to keep it running smoothly. Separating and cleaning the main pieces every 2-3 months is all I do (nothing that requires tools to disassemble, but a good 15 minutes of cleaning+vacuuming)
Our cats were always very stinky with traditional litter boxes (even on different diets) and the litter robot did cut that down significantly... but what made a huge difference was using a litter that was a combination of clay, activated carbon and silica granules (we use Biokat's Diamond Care Classic - it is expensive, previously I manually mixed in carbon+silica into cheaper clay litter with moderate success).
We only have one cat now, and only need to replace the bag once every 10 days, but even so I can't detect any cat smell in the house (and am quite sensitive to it) nor can any of my friends/family -- but they all have cats so there may well still be some base level of smell that all our noses are innured to.
To a sibling commentor's warning, neither of our cats are worried about it cycling (in fact, our sphynx races over to watch it cycle any time she hears the motor start up). It has a weight sensor as well as a pinch sensor to prevent the cat being injured in case they jump in while it's running -- so far nobody's tried to, but good to know it's there.
I found it quite good for our older cat, too: one of our cats had a bit of arthritis in later life and needed the set of steps to comfortably get up and into the litter box which does increase the already pretty significant footprint of the device. It also has an automatic low light that comes on when it gets dark that helped her get around when her eyesight was failing.
A sibling comment noted that it's pretty expensive and may not be worth the cost - I think that's probably true, although I've no regrets (and even bought a second one) because of the amount of scooping it's saved me.
Our cats were always very stinky with traditional litter boxes
That's probably more expensive over a large enough number of years relative to a robo litter box, but you're also removing other indoor allergy causes as well, so it's doing other work which may be beneficial.
Also the fan noise from the filters is very gentle; actually a plus for many.
For the one cat though it is definitely great, he's kinda fearless though so your cats may not quite be brave enough to face the beast everytime they go to the bathroom.
Edit - my name is Zircom, I have a litter robot 3 for the record, and I recommend it as long as you don't have scaredy cats.
It's been great so far, the kitten really liked it, she will even come to watch it run when it does it's cleaning cycle.
Older cat was a little skittish as first but took to it as well, I left out the old litter box for a few days but soon she started going to the cleaner automated one.
With two cats I empty the bottom tray liner twice a week, every couple days I'll vacuum the ramp and around the litter box to keep the small clay litter confined to that area.
We're using the BoxiePro Deep Clean, Scent Free, Probiotic Clumping Cat Litter.
I'd go ahead and get the wifi one esp. if you travel or are out of the house, I also setup a camera to keep an eye on it and initially to see which cat was using it.
We weren't using scoopable litter before so I'm estimating this will save us over $4k in litter costs over the next 3 years. We were using yesterdays news litter, changing out two litter boxes every other day was about $12 in litter. I like putting plenty in their boxes it seems cleaner for everyone.
So it uses very little litter I add a solo cup of litter a couple times per week, so I expect the $28 bag of boxie will last at least a month.
It sounds crazy to spend this much on a litter box but since we weren't using scoopable it will actually save us money.
Plus when we're out of town our neighbors won't have to change the litter boxes, maybe once on a long trip.
It is larger than a standard litter box. We set ours up in our hall closet off the kitchen, wide closet, double sliding doors. I'm going to build a small rectangular cat door off to the side of the main doors so we don't have to keep the door open. I'm going to build a full depth and width shelf above it so it's in it's own space in the bottom of the closet.
Edit: Thanks for all the replies. I am still on the fence about it, and may try further options to reduce the smell (at least enough so that a cat-person like myself can live with it ;))
There is a carbon filter that sits on one end of the tray to help minimize scent, but it's not very effective in my experience. I'm currently experimenting with putting various nicely-scented objects in that tray, in front of the filter (like those little scent blocks you can hang on the side of your toilet bowl, for example).
The scent will also largely depend on the cat's digestive system. My cats tend to not have very smelly or soft feces so it's not bad at all, but if one of them gets diarrhea you bet I'm emptying that litter bin right away. Likewise, if a guest is coming over I'd probably suggest emptying the litter bin beforehand just in case.
I know you already know of better litter and baking soda tricks, but there is a powder you can purchase and sprinkle into litter, which gives off a fresh scent. I found using it also helps, as does sprinkling some of it into the bottom of the litter tray itself (into the litter waste bin). I don't have the name of it on hand, but I think there are a few brands out there that are pretty common.
Edit: the _majority_ of the time there is no smell I can easily detect until I open the tray to remove the garbage. But as someone else mentioned, no smell to a cat person may not be a reliable gauge.
The litter won't stay in the open part for more than 10-25 minutes and then it is cycled into the drawer which is relatively contained and has a charcoal filter on it.
We have two cats and end up changing the drawer every 2-3 days. I have a friend who manages not to change the drawer for a week and I do think it starts to smell then.
The main benefits are that we don't have to tend to the litter tray that often and when we do we only need to pull out the plastic trash bag, tie it up and replace with a new one. I also think it uses a lot less litter as we never have to fully change it out like you do with normal cat boxes.
It's an expensive item but I think it's definitely worth it. Get a reconditioned one for $50-100 less as they are perfectly clean and they will get messy pretty quickly anyway.
We pair ours with Nature's Miracle cat litter which has baking soda and other deodorizer in it.
You will smell it when you open the drawer to change the bag a couple times per week but only till you tie up the bag to take out.
I will say I think this one works well, but you could likely find something cheaper because you don't need to much air circulation for a litter box. I just happened to already have this one.
Made a huge difference to the smell when we switched.
It does take a little learning. You have to learn how to not overfill it. How to do a full break down clean of it (not hard just more involved). It doesn't keep the smell down significantly more than a traditional litter box imo.
Pretty sure ours paid for itself in litter savings in about a year.
The Watts Towers complex has a museum to Mingus attached, as well as another museum of local artists attached. I'd highly recommend a visit. It's a beautiful neighborhood full of very nice people.
Thanks for the museum suggestion. I haven’t been to the towers since 1979 when I made my parents take me after they played in a tennis tournament at USC while I hung out at the Boys and Girls Club in the nearby park.
However, I can confirm you will get into a bathroom stare down with your cat every once in a while.
Reminded me of how we tend to forget that even the most outstanding people are just as ordinary as we are. When at home, legendary jazz musician Charles Mingus is just an ordinary guy, training his cat to use the toilet.
On a more serious note, I believe it is not advised to put cat poop down the toilet, since our sewage treatment systems are not capable of dealing with toxoplasmosis from cat faeces
I love how Mingus is so in tune with how his cat (Nightlife) thinks, sensing how to encourage him, how to avoid freaking him out, how to lead him along.
Some of Mingus's best known works (Mingus Ah Um, Black Saint and The Sinner Lady, etc.) are organized group improvisations, with multiple wind instruments playing improvised lines at once. It's different from big bands like Ellington's where you have featured soloists and everybody else playing charts (even if the rhythm section does some improvising), and it's difficult to achieve balance of the various elements under such circumstances. I get a sense from this article how Mingus manages to get inside the heads of his collaborators, to keep their trust, and lead them towards a shared vision.
My last cat used a litter box and when she got old and demented, she would sometimes sleep in the box, so I had to clean her regularly.
Seeing that she was able to steal some food from a table when I was out of a room when she was already blind and deaf warmed my heart.
20 years I had her, good times.
I’ve used the litter robot, and honestly I think a plain old litter box is easier to keep clean, and in general better for all parties.
The first two cats did this almost effortlessly. They didn't give us any trouble because we changed steps slowly.
I've never tried it, but I've seen plastic products selling on the internet that replace the cardboard.
Even if you are not a jazz fan, listen to his record Mingus Ah Um. It is mind-blowingly brilliant. There is just nothing quite like it!
https://www.topospress.com/collections/prints-and-ephemera/p...
https://www.schoolforthedogs.com/podcasts/episode-96-the-cha...
I've changed the title (from "Charles Mingus Cat Toilet Training Program").