Match Group file multiple lawsuits after repeated failed acquisition offer
muzmatch.com
muzmatch.com
A big problem cropped up where this style of argument was essentially a "no-risk" proposition - because the issue was orthogonal to the actual content of the debate, teams could without risk argue that their opponent had broken the rules - if they convinced the judge, they won the debate, if they failed to, the debate just continued as usual.
Eventually, to deter the ever-growing proliferation of these objections, people started arguing that anyone who initiates one of these "rule violation accusations" should lose the debate if they fail to prove their claim. I'm wondering if a similar penalty could become commonplace (perhaps by default/presumption) in US courts.
Still, it could be that the stupid arguments are malicious. In that case, perhaps one could prove it.
Btw, for former debaters, OP of this thread is talking about topicality, theory/framework (which makes the gamework!), and reverse voting issues (RVIs)
Edit: I just learned you can use escape characters in HN text boxes
Perhaps part of the role of the judge is to understand, and correct for, this imbalance - but I'm not sure how effective that is.
But back to the point, rules on legal costs, punitive fees and so on, all fall down when "the boot is on the other foot." There is no way for the small guy to take a big guy to court if legal costs are always paid by the loser, never mind punitive damages.
Equally while it's popular to default to evil-corp (with good reason) it's also important for big-Corp to have, and be able to defend, their intellectual property.
Writing rules that allow for fairness under all these conditions, inside a system that incentives combatents (lawyers) to maximise personal profitability, is, well, tricky.
It's a good point, but I think you can solve that by just giving the judge discretion to scale the punishment appropriately.
> Equally while it's popular to default to evil-corp (with good reason) it's also important for big-Corp to have, and be able to defend, their intellectual property.
This is true as well, and I think if its a good faith disagreement on the law, the other side should pay the legal fees of the winner, but no more than that. But this case seems like bad faith, and I think we should be more aggressive about punishing that.
Relying on a judge to apply rules based on their whim seems prone to failure. Judges are people with all the baggage they bring. There's a reason patent owners like East Texas.
Good Faith is also a nebulous measure. On the face of it Match has a reasonable good-faith argument to complain about Muzmatch in the same space. They may win, they may lose, but either way both sides are spending million(s) on this. By your logic Muzmatch would stand to lose a few million if they lose the case. That may be existential for them, and vacation budget for Match. And we're back to asymetary.
[1] I read this as "intellectual protectionism".
And yes all IP laws (copyright, trademarks etc) exist to both stifle and encourage innovation.
To be clear, _copying_is not innovation. And trademarks are the easiest to innovate in such that you don't infringe. For example Lindows was a clear case of "not innovating" and MS protected their trademark. Personally I don't believe you can trademark a common word (match) but when you enter a space its not terribly clever to use a compeditor name as part of your name.
Regarding acquisition, of course product cloning is an alternative. Little guys clone big guys, big guys clone little guys, everyone clones everyone all the time.
And yes the legal system can be used as a weapon, by big and small against big and small.
To this you can add theft of trade secrets disclosed while having talks and a bunch of other risks when in the process of acquisition. If you're going down this route specialist advice is recommended.
If you don't believe in trademarking a common word, the Windows trademark wouldn't be valid and Lindows would not be infringing.
More broadly & theoretically: Nothing is necessary to encourage innovation. Innovation Happens; its a by-product of both human nature and capitalistic economic systems. Creativity-based IP (ex: developing a cool new video game character) is most often a by-product of necessity in human nature to express ones inner creativity. Technology-based IP (ex: developing a new drug) is most often a by-product of necessity in market-based economic systems; if enough people exist to buy it, it will be developed.
Secrecy, as it exists today within a non-legal context, would still exist without any IP protection, and is generally adequate to reach first-to-market. In addition to domain expertise, of course.
Caveat: there's a delineation between, for lack of a better term, "product-based distribution rights" versus much more ephemeral intellectual property. For example, Disney produces Iron Man the movie, versus Iron Man the character. One is a product; the other is pure intellectual property. Or: Remdesivir the pill, versus the Remdesivir formulation and chemical structure. It makes far more sense to me that Iron Man the movie should still have access to strong legal protection, in the form of stopping unwanted distribution; but that is separate from controlling access to Iron Man the character.
Caveat: ip laws are oftentimes leveraged in a consumer protection angle (especially trademarks). Again, this feels like a situation where we started with ip laws, then said "oh thank goodness we can use these laws to protect consumers", rather than starting with the generally laudable goal of protecting consumers then working backward to arrive at laws which can do that. In other words, the argument is always "you're using the word 'match' in your company name, you're deceiving consumers" and not "you're deceiving consumers, and here's a list of reasons why, one of which is the usage of 'match' in your name". Copying a name is evidence of an offense; not an offense itself.
The issue is: Copying can be innovative. Everyone stands on the shoulders of giants, and innovation comes in many forms. There is innovation in the original creation; but original creation is not alone an application of intellectual property to benefit humanity in an equitable & accessible way. Quite literally, its the same argument as the old "ideas are a dime a dozen; its the execution that matters"; because it really is. Inventing a life-saving drug should not be rewarded; being able to produce it at massive scale, for an affordable price, should be rewarded. And free market economic systems (with FDA-like quality control, of course) do that really well.
Ideally, the same company can do both; and stepping back ip laws would actually add pressure to accomplish just that.
Final argument against: Some intellectual creations are just really expensive to produce, and may never be produced if an ROI can't be guaranteed with ip laws. There are two issues with this argument:
First: What if it isn't actually legitimately expensive to produce? IP laws are baked in to everything at this point; companies know they can charge whatever they want for some product, because they have intellectual property protection; and that means they can inflate their inefficiencies in producing it. Its similar reasoning to student loan bankruptcy protection being a reason why higher education has gotten so expensive in the US; why not be inefficient? Removing ip protection could actually increase efficiency by forcing companies to optimize research & delivery (or more accurately; inefficient companies who can no longer hide behind the shield of ip protection will be replaced by more efficient organizations who can produce the same thing cheaper).
Second: Ok; Something is legitimately insanely expensive to produce. The only great example anyone ever provides in this category is drugs. And its a good example; novel drugs can be really expensive to produce, test, etc. So, the company wants an ROI; and that means philosophically holding a gun to a patient's head and saying "you're gonna die without this, now buy it". This is not ok; and it should be somewhere that public funding steps in.
The point of this rant is not to assert change that any western country needs to implement; because we never will. More-so just an intellectual argument.
Actually we have a pretty good case study. Patent laws for pharmaceuticals. Before much of the world-wide "harmonisation" of patent law, different countries allowed for very different patentability of pharmaceutical "recipes". In all of Europe and Switzerland up to the 1930s (or possibly even later) therapeutical agents were excluded from patenting (although companies tried to get around this in various ways), in the US on the other hand no such provision existed. However, the vast majority of innovation/inventions came from Europe, also the investment in R&D was much higher in Europe than in the US.
All this to support your assertion that the idea that "ip laws encourage innovation" is tenuous.
The Soviet Union had no way for individuals to benefit from innovation. So in most spheres they lagged the West in technological advancement. One area which did have rewards (in standard of living), rocketry, they were ahead.
During WW2 many private companies developed weapons etc for private gain. Especially in the air. While there were talented designers in the USSR, again, overall they lagged behind. I'm not saying none - there were other rewards in play - but as a proportion of population, progress overall seems slow.
If I had to hypothesise I'd say than IP laws encourage innovation via competition, whereas non-IP areas focus on innovation through cooperation - for societal not individual benefit.
As far as being cloned, yeah I'm not surprised. If they can't aquire you, they will try to clone you. That is how competition works. IP laws help prevent that.
This all seems like a classic jealous bigger guy that couldn't get it's way and is throwing its toys out the pram.
I hope this backfires and Match get stung in all this. If anyone from Match is reading, your conglomerate won't do this app or its complicated community any justice anywhere near as the founder would.
Keep your (very) rich hands off.
This is all fueled by investor money and public market money. Throw tons of money at something and you'll dominate the market, whether or not the product is any good. This is the heart of so many problems in the tech industry and part of why I think we need alternatives to current funding models for tech.
> including Tinder, Match.com, Meetic, OkCupid, Hinge, PlentyOfFish, Ship, and OurTime totalling over 45 global dating companies
The ones not in that list are owned (at least in part) by Andrey Andreev: Badoo, Bumble, Lumen, Chappy and Hot or Not.
Intense...
Today some Chinese brands match Luxottica in quality, and if you do some homework you'll find almost every independent brand is much cheaper and high quality (Bollé is my go to for safety/sports glasses, for example).
Still doesn’t change your point that there are two major monopolies in the online dating sector.
1- https://techcrunch.com/2019/11/08/badoos-andrey-andreev-sell...
I don’t what percentage of coupling and relationships are dependent today on Match.com et al but I bet it’s substantial at least in the major western markets.
The sheer amount of potential social engineering one achieve by cornering the market is pretty frightening.
It’s the same issue I have with the likes of Facebook and Google they really can control the lives of people far beyond what most can even imagine.
For most of us life isn’t some great plan, it’s all a series of small inconsequential events that roll into big life changing ones.
Some of your biggest moments in life can be “traced back” to a single inconsequential random moment and companies like Google and Facebook control a lot of these moments today.
Hopefully the courts in the UK side with you (they are quite fair) and that you can get back to business.
That system has turned into and proven an abject failure for multiple decades now, and somehow there is still no will to fix it.
There are few things as infuriating as systemic injustice.
I'm not a trademark lawyer so I have no legal argument to make, but I dont think match is insane for wanting to have a court of law decide if this company has stolen their trademark.
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/gallery/tinder-for-muslims-527...
So the stealing might have happened the other way.
1. https://logos.fandom.com/wiki/Match.com?oldid=2485091#2003.E...
2. https://match.mediaroom.com/2014-03-20-Match-com-Hits-a-Home...
3. https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/business/enterprise/...
4. https://web.archive.org/web/20131221012404/https://www.manch...
I understand why the patent system exists and its pitfalls aren't easy to solve but god does it suck so much when it gets abused by corporations.
Couldn't agree less. Having used Hinge vs Tinder. It's a huge ergonomic difference.
Indeed that comment read like an unashamed sour grapes excuse.
I don’t blame Match for any of this, as much as I want to root for a startup.
How can a company legitimately claim a name that has had a clear prior art on it?
Can I claim the word 'The' for eternity and sue anyone who dares to even use it in the name of their enterprise?
Maybe the BBC should of been sharper on their trademarks or like many - thought it was so common, who would allow it.
Many decades.
Matchmaking is about as old as human history, especially in Middle-Eastern/Indian cultures.
If Match.com established the brand other people can’t. I didn’t make the law but people are downvoting me like I did, I just pointed out (and IANAL so maybe I’m wrong) that this seems like clear brand harm.
It's however bizzare that the system would grant them a monopoly on something they didn't invent. They merely took it from the community of English speakers and branded it as their own.
Similar to claiming a patent on an invention that you didn't invent. Just took already existing public domain technology that nobody else would dare to claim rights on and slapped a monopoly stamp on it.
This company knows that, that’s why they settled.
In any case this is very much the big guy vs the small. The accusation attempt speaks for all of this. They couldn't buy them. I can hear the rattled and frustrated CEOs confusion when they were turned down.
I'm rooting for the smaller guy, and what's way to destroy your companies image.
"Come on down folks, for a good time with the family, eat some greasy pizza in our rat themed child casino..."
I dont think I can call my company "Software" and then sue anyone that uses the word software in the software industry. I feel "match" is similar to trademark of the word Dating. I am sure a trademark attorney can enlighten us. I am guessing.
Obviously the trademark was granted in multiple jurisdictions for match so its not a problem apparently. I wonder what the rationale is.
Or Microsoft suing NCSoft for being a software company.
Etc.
I hope this gets thrown out.