Dutch government to pay million Euro fine over racist data discrimination

I didn't really leave it out, I just don't think it's relevant.

I don't think knowingly persecuting citizens (in bulk!) for something they did not commit is something that ever should happen. The tax service literally flagged people based on nothing and then pushed on without listening to any arguments from their side. This is not "tougher on fraud". This is just pure bullying to inflate "frauds caught" numbers, helped by the "guilty unless proven innocent" policy which is really unfair. Many of these innocent people are still waiting for compensation!

Of course there were some that did commit fraud. And the current privatised system is really prone to abuse anyway. With the old state-run system every healthcare was given 'in kind' and there was no need for financial reimbursements. They should take money loop out of the system again. Then there will be no more scope for abuse in this way. All these dodgy agencies only cropped up to take advantage of the privatised system. And in many cases parents were not aware of their dodgy nature - in any case those agencies should be the ones being prosecuted, not the parents.

But no real systemic changes were made. An apology to those affected, some promises for compensation they're still waiting on. And things are back as they always were.

I think the problem is that it’s only effective in the short term to profile like that. If you already consider someone guilty before they do anything, there’s very little stopping them from actually doing the thing for real (at least, I would have few moral qualms).

>At the same time, I think there are demographics in this country that are more likely to abuse the system or display behavior that make one a little more suspicious of them in principle.

I have zero intention to engage in a useless discussion but I am startled to still see a comment like that.

Yes, this is also exactly what they thought, and that's why they are called racist and got fined.

You don't use statistical data to become more suspicious of individuals due to their race and discriminate against.

How hard to understand this.

> At the same time, I think there are demographics in this country that are more likely to abuse the system or display behavior that make one a little more suspicious of them in principle.

i want to gently point out, without implying intention, that this is, in it's self, a racist belief

Indeed. On a related note, I find the criticism of US leadership (often much older folks as leader usually are) being “too white” a bit odd when the US was almost 90% white up until the 1970’s.[1]. Which actually surprised me as I thought it was much lower.

So just assuming most leaders are 50+, just by probability you’d assume 80%+ would be white if they were educated in the 1980’s.

Obviously there is work to do in term of women leaders as well as African Americans who have been underrepresented, but it’s odd to expect the people running the country and businesses who were educated in 1980’s to reflect 2020 demographics.

[1]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_racial_and_ethnic...

Whilst not denying it, this is a very Dutch argument: yea, we're a bit shitty, but not as shitty as the other guy!

I loved my time in the Netherlands. I'd love to go back. But I think it's good to be eyes-wide-open about things. What I read about Denmark is not dissimilar: hugely tolerant as long as you put your dustbin out with the handle the right way round on the right day, at the right time. Otherwise, you're in for a fight.

Oliebollen forever!

Thank you! I don't understand why we're supposed to live in a democracy, except when it comes to mass immigration, on that topic you are not allowed to have an opinion because it makes you a straight up nazi. I live in Brussels and I can see first hand what mass immigration does to a city. Specifically immigration from outside of Europe, bringing in droves of people from a culture and religion which is simply incompatible with western values. The proof is that even 3rd or 4th generation immigrations still haven't integrated, let alone assimilated, most often living in ghettos with massive unemployment, high crime, drug dealing, where ideas and culture run rampant which can best be described as medieval (with respect to homosexuality, work ethics, religion, women, behavior in public, ...).

My own country has a VERY generous social security system, which combined with mass immigration for decades, and little to no effort spent on integration & assimilation, leads to destruction of society, total lack of support for politics and a general pessimistic view on the future.

Yeah, but there are two completely different circumstances. Europe dosent have to deal with the absolute cluster fuck mess colonialism was. They just took money and resources and moved on.

"Hey broken country do want another million people?"

If the shoe was on the other foot? Gtfo your talking about highly corrupt administations propt up by western interests, that only providing aide for un-repayable loans. Look up what the IMF or World Bank has done and its failures.

Why do you think these people are refuguees?

They are usually running from their own country, they are running from situations from Muslim countries. How can you possibly extrapolate how billions of people would react?

You say muslims, most muslims are in Indonesia, Saudi is hardly representative of most Muslims.

Islam is far less organized or a pancea that you see it as. Muslim countries dont follow the spirit of any Islamic law, except when it suits their needs, Saudi is famous for this.

Its just too easy to paint broad strokes. You mischaracterize the situation to fit your own narrative.

Can we finally state as a fact that Europe is only democratic and fair for its own citizens?

Makes sense people in this world are selfish, and self concerned. I get your prespective but your Dutch way of life isnt even close to being threatened.

Next time you hear in the news about how progressive and equal your country maybe you ahould add that aestrix, then maybe less people will come.

Yeah, from a historical perspective, it’s a miracle that the modern west is not more racist.

“We have primitive instincts, medieval institutions, and God-like technology.” — EO Wilson

I didn't want to chime in because Dutch colonialism etc. but still....

There has to be a place in the global stage for whites/caucasians/etc. just as much as any other grouping. And it's OK for them to have their own culture and place. They are not the global majority in any way, either by culture or otherwise. Demanding that they assimilate to a foreign ideal is not going to work.

>moving them to a remote island

You might want to look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marichjhapi_massacre, although there are thoughts that it was because a lot of them voted for the [non-CPI(M)] RSP that was part of the Left Front in WB at the time but not the ruling party

I feel like a country that was knee-deep in the trans-Atlantic slave trade like the Dutch doesn’t get to go isolationist once it becomes convenient.

> If those non-natives don't speak proper Dutch or with a heavy accent I could understand these parents, kids pick this up and it will influence their learning and future prospects negatively.

It's more complex. Learning in your native language has a strong effect in your ability to learn. For very intelligent kids this is no problem and may be actually good, but the aggregate effect is that non native kids will lag behind. Also immigrant parents tend to have lower education and worse jobs, with more demanding schedules and less time and energy to monitor closely their children and this also has a strong effect. A few inmigrant children is no problem at all but if there is a huge percentage then the academic level will drop. This will transform into just another force pushing segregation that will feed back the whole cycle.

I don't feel particularly badly treated. Things like the fuck-you are peculiarly Dutch. The 50 euro note incident is comical because there are hundreds of ways to handle large notes, it's a problem the whole world has. It's not unique to the Dutch shop to find it annoying. The Dutch shop response is a bit more unique.

The restaurant thing I should have been clearer. It was a repeated experience I and others shared. Not 45min before closing time: 45min before kitchen closing time. If the staff just ignore you, until the kitchen closes they can close up faster.

The premis/registration things you also misunderstand me. The problem is that Dutch officialdom is incredibly complex. Many other expats told us of the experience I relate here, you ring to ask a question and get a bad answer, if you ring back 20 minutes later you get a good one. It's a notorious problem many expatriates get: there's one form, it's actually all 26 different forms stapled together and you have to find the one page which applies to you, in the set. The funny thing is that the south Amsterdam registration office even gives you a booklet whose opening phrases are "yes, we do paperwork very differently here. Expect to get a lot of this"

All cultures have their quirks. My Dutch friends and longterm resident non Dutch shrug, and accept these things.

The childcare thing is worrying. It has huge assumptions, like the premise they will learn bad Dutch. Really? So the Dutch grandma who lived in Jakarta All those years ago being raised by Indonesians... she learned bad Dutch? And, there's a reason immigrants work in childcare which needs to be seen too: if you want echte-dutch language and culture in childcare you have to pay better)

Australia is far from perfect. I'm not saying we do it better or the French do it better or anything. I'm just saying the Dutch have their quirks and institutional racism of a kind, is one of them. Along with a very new yorker fuck-you attitude. But maybe you're right, it's an Amsterdam thing. I'm told the south (maastricht) is very different and they certainly dress differently from what I saw. Somebody said it's like catholic protestant a bit too: old Dutch catholic money down south, old Dutch protestant money up north.

But does it really need to be anything more than lip service? Who wants to give away their own stuff or sacrifice their own children's chance at life so that some random person can live? Is it fair to expect everyone to be the Biblical Jesus?

It may not immediately look like those things are happening in your life or the lives of people you know, but when you look at e.g. the US, you see people advocating for programs that given housing, education, and other financial aid ti immigrants but do nothing for the poor we already have here. It is difficult to accept, but it's likely best we leave those people to starve out of sight somewhere our conscience can bear it. There's lots of places in the world that begin starving at the slightest economic downturn -- this is probably an indication that that land can't support the number of people on it.

I've been thinking a lot about this. It seems to me that because many people in Europe have grown up in such homogeneous societies, there is a tendency to have blind spots when it comes to race. A recent example I can think of is how the Dutch justice minister said that if the Netherlands were a narco-state, then there would be someone with an exotic background in his place. I don't think he intended to be racist, I just think he didn't realise what he was saying had racist undertones.

The most racially diverse international organization in Europe is NATO.

Huh. My experience with US racists are they tend to hold stereotypes of minorities that are no longer politically correct, but otherwise treat people decently.

I see plenty of video of riots in Europe of aryans and skinheads that you don’t see in the US.

Soft bigotry of low expectations is definitely a thing in Americans who aren't violent, raging assholes. I would even argue that it underpins a certain part of the diversity effort - the one that wants racial quotas.

I don't know which one is better. Being outright violent or a condescending asshole.

Zwarte Piet

They just had an election and voters in the Netherlands have zero long term memory so they will consider themselves totally in the clear