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Comment by jamesbrady | Hacker News Reader

> I guess the source of the confusion is that you didn't specify what the sabotage actually is

Ah ha, I see – yes I had in mind actively doing stuff to undermine the team after the person has left (on the benign end, deliberately doing a crappy job of documentation; on the malignant end, stuff like data destruction). I will make this clearer in the post, thanks!

> - The notion that you should have loyalty to the team beyond your last paycheck.

It made me sad to read this. You don't have to be loyal to your team, of course, but your framing makes me think that you've never been in a position where you've wanted to be loyal to your team, long-term.

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Wanting to be loyal to a team is a fools errand. It's the embodiment of having been successfully indoctrinated into the 'work as life & family' culture. I went through 20 years of that because it's my nature. Without a doubt it has been to the detriment of my career and personal life. Stayed on too long at dead-end jobs where I was the parent in the room; Stayed on too long at jobs that underpaid and leveraged my loyalty to add responsibility without recompense; Worked far too many hours a week for no actual reward other than praise.

Managers preach this because they want to make their problems yours as an employee. I know this because I've done it too and will probably do it again at some point.

Loyalty is not a one way street, but being an employee always is, there are no exceptions. Employment is having Damocles sword hanging over you and it's foolish to think otherwise.

I've been in a team that I wanted to be loyal to. I'm actually still friends with some of my former teammates from there. It was a great job right up until the point where they laid off as many people as legally possible and lied about the reasons.

It might be different for an employee-owned cooperative, but if you're working for a corporation, loyalty is a bad tradeoff even if you like your team. The risk/reward of things like being honest with your manager about what isn't working just isn't there (and you'd be surprised - or maybe you wouldn't - how quickly a seemingly friendly manager can decide to act like a total dickhead, and there's nothing you can do about it if they do).

> You don't have to be loyal to your team, of course, but your framing makes me think that you've never been in a position where you've wanted to be loyal to your team, long-term.

I'm sure such places exist, but most jobs are not like that, sadly.

In any case, there's a difference between want and should. I'm not criticizing people who want to be loyal to the team. Just those that think there is an obligation to.

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