It's ok if you started programming at 8 or at 38. You can still get out. Run | Hacker News Reader

It's ok if you started programming at 8 or at 38. You can still get out. Run

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Something I've realized lately is that I like programming, but I hate programming on a team. (Before you say it: I'm good at working on a team, I get along well with my teammates, and my managers only have good things to say about me and my work.) It doesn't matter how good the team is, the software development process seems to suck all the joy out of programming. At least for me.

I'm hoping that I can either retire early, so that I still have time to enjoy programming on my own terms, or can somehow pivot to being a solo dev (which comes with its own pitfalls, of course).

I know where you're coming from. I've experienced the shock of switching from a nimble startup to a large tech co with teams for UX research, web, mobile, backend, platform, infrastructure, observability. Took a good while to get used to it. Each project has had it's prototype phase where core stuff gets figured out and a proof-of-concept validated. The productionization and stream of shipping PRs to deliver that over the next N months can be a lot. Then a new project starts and things are new and interesting in new/unknown ways. Pair programming helps, it's like watching a movie you like where you know what happens with someone who hasn't seen it before.

One thing that would help here is if new initiatives are new delivered artifacts rather than being tied to the CI/CD process of the established product. I haven't worked at a place that does this, but have worked at a place that didn't to its great detriment--instability of core product from changes made by new and slow new product development hindered by being in same monolith. Whenever I see a posting about a bank or other saying that we're big but have a small startup-mentality team, I don't buy it. Would love to find out I'm wrong on that.

I can't say for sure if any of those many startups where I did really cool stuff still runs those products. Possibly only in a sort of maintenance mode. What I'm working on now has more chance of being the foundation for something that lasts a lot longer, so taking a very long-term view makes it worthwhile.

I still do look fondly on the scrappy startup style of working in a small tight platform/API team where you can have a super technical discussion using so few words because you already know where the thoughts are headed.

Yeah, I'm with you. I was effectively a solo dev for a few years and definitely had a "grass is greener" mentality so I joined a team. I quickly realized the grass was not greener.

I think my ideal is working on a project solo, but still having other folks (doing other projects) to bounce ideas off of.

I like programming, I hate programming on legacy software with very slow build times and odd design decisions.

Bonus if the task is purely debugging, like “get this to load faster” instead of making new features. Probably why a lot of apps get bloated with feature creep.

Programming to me is a system of thought. You can be a developer with a boring job, or a cool job, or not a developer at all, but if you have a fundamental understanding of programming (either having worked in software, postgraduate CS or related fields, I want to differentiate what I'm talking about from some kind of learn to code course) you have a powerful tool that can help you in any career.

Understanding computer science is in some sense like a liberal arts degree. Even if your job is not writing essays, you still have ways of thinking and understanding the world that help you in whatever you do.

Maybe I read too much into the tweet. But I think programming is a valuable skill no matter what you're career is

I think you may be understating the point. So much of the meaning and value in our world is now tangled up in computers, even a modest amount of skill programming makes you some level of god in an increasingly reified domain. Yes, we live in a society and skill at society still dominates, but programming now probably surpasses finance and takes second place in terms of effective levers to have and use.

My Dad started programming in the late 1950s and retired in 2000, and in all that time I think he was more in the "work to live" camp rather than spending much of his free time programming side projects like a lot of the folks here, or making programming a big part of his identity (or maybe that wasn't really a thing in ye olden days?).

However he's always been an enthusiast for puzzles, logic, and 'programming-like' systems. I think he is a programmer, and for people like that, I'm not sure they need to run from anything, besides obviously toxic work environments of course.

I used to think that I loved programming as a career because it makes me learn all the time. That's a two edged sword because you can't be complacent but I was proud of the fact that I would never be a cog at a company who only had work because no one else wanted to do dead end work that I was doing.

But, today my son was reading a book about ionic bonding. And it made me think, I'm not learning about anything outside of a narrow realm of programming. I'm only learning about yet another JavaScript framework that will not be as shitty as the last. But no one outside of a few people will ever really care about, much less understand at all. Keeping up with all that stuff takes so much time and I'm always feeling like I'm not keeping up with my imaginary peers.

I feel like I've stopped learning about other things outside of programming because I am always trying to keep up with the infinite realm of software development. As a father of three young kids, it is exhausting.

I asked my son what exactly he was reading this morning on the way to school about ionic bonding. He didn't remember. So, maybe all isn't lost, and I'm not the only one with an empty head in the family. But he's 9. I'm 48. Fuck.

And? Let me ponder my work experience

* Bus tables? I guess I could, but it's lot of time on your feet for someone my age.

* Stock shelves? Yes, but my back is not as limber as it was at 19.

* Drive a van or a truck? Well, maybe.

* Read proof? Maybe, but there is such a thing as presbyopia.

* Edit copy? The difference between passenger pigeons and copy editors: if you want to see a passenger pigeon, you can find stuffed ones in natural history museums.

* Do tech support? That's getting a bit too close to programming.

Most people will need to put in two to five years of study and practice to develop marketable skills as a programmer. Those years are a lot easier to give from 14 to 19 than at 38 to 43. If you have family, kids, responsibilities the time and focus get harder to come by, no matter what career you try to switch to. That said there’s no reason a person can’t learn programming at 8, 38, or 58.

A few people manage to get through law school, medical school, or learn how to write code later in life while holding down a job and raising a family. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s easier when you have the time and freedom of youth.

From the comments:

> I already spend a lot of free time watching YouTube drywalling

This observation is not entirely wrong..

I started after age 40.

Having a great time.

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