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One of the biggest turn off to me of java has always been the poor quality of many java apps. Especially on mac, you know when its a java app vs native.

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Can you give me an example? Java is used for so few user applications, the only project I can think of is IntelliJ, which is an amazing project.

I use jetbrains apps on mac. I like them a lot, but they aren’t mac-like even now. In the past they were even chunkier.

SPSS comes to mind too.

SPSS doesn't come to mind as having developers that would bother to read Filthy Rich Clients kind of books, or Apple extensions,

http://filthyrichclients.org/

https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/navigation/index...

My mind goes to the original Arduino IDE, or Weka Studio. I know these are pretty indie projects in the scheme of things, but still.

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