Reuters data scientist questioned the BLM narrative–so the company fired him
city-journal.org
city-journal.org
> Through a Zoom window, he comes across as rational, intelligent, and mathematically minded, if somewhat lacking in social graces.
Sometimes it's not about what you say but how you say it. I even once bought a similarly titled book for a colleague of mine that was terrible at communication.
All numbers point towards the counter productivity of police abolition, removal of standardized testing, BLM protests, 'compassionate' district attorneys, school closures, unquestioned affirmation of identities, "trust science" and dozens of similar initiatives.
Yet any criticism is met with firings, being blacklisted from industry/social media, character assassinations, and forcing these people to find refuge with the right.
From heavyweights like Rowling, Chapelle to academics like Chomsky, McWhorter and statisticians like Nate Silver. No one is spared with no space for nuance.
This is one of my uncharacteristically emotionally loaded comments on HN. I don't want HN to become a flamewarry place, so this will be a one off comment. But, it does feel a little hopeless.
It sounds like instead of doing the job they hired him to do, he was spending his time arguing about BLM. I mean expressing his opinion is one thing but if it's to the point that his presence is an overall negative for the company, he should be fired.
I mean this guy knew he'd be fired if he kept doing what he was doing and chose to get fired, so it's hard to have any sympathy for him.
It's like if someone goes to work for Fox News and spends all their time arguing with everyone at the company about how Democrats are great and Republicans are evil, they will get fired too.
> The stories framed the unrest as a “a new national reckoning about racial injustice” and described the protests as “mostly peaceful” or “largely peaceful,” despite widespread violence, looting, and crime. “More than 93% of recent demonstrations connected to Black Lives Matter were peaceful,” Reuters insisted, even as rioters caused up to $2 billion in property damage across the country.
The author is clearly trying to paint BLM as responsible for the property damage, which has been widely debunked.
It goes on and on reiterating the right-wing perspective of 2020 in an attempt to defend the data scientist.
Again, there’s probably some important conversation to be had around politics in the workplace but it’s really challenging to have a constructive conversation or debate when you plant your flag on one end of the political spectrum and tell the story from that biased reference point.
Some cops do bad things, do you think all cops are bad? Or is there a double standard? If anything cops should be held to a higher standard not a lesser because it’s their purpose to protect people.
[1] just one example to show they do this https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/security/twitter-takes-down-was...
Tbh, we are extremely lucky to have any video evidence of the sabotuers, most arent stupid enough to commit crimes on video.
It's literally video evidence as I stated above, are you choosing to have a hard time with this on purpose?
"Minneapolis 'Umbrella Man' who sparked AutoZone fire is Hells Angels member"
https://www.foxnews.com/us/minneapolis-umbrella-man-autozone...
Don't be surprised that the largest gang in America (law enforcement) supports and is heavily controlled by white supremacists (KKK, Hells Angels, The Executioners, etc... ) , many police deparment whistle blowers and undercover investigators have pointed out this fact over the years.
So... is this really your "evidence"? I mean, sure, that could have been an outside agitator. But maybe not. You have no idea. But I suppose you can believe whatever you want.
Look, I recognize that were probably some outside agitators mixed in with the BLM protesters. For example, look at the two guys that Kyle Rittenhouse killed: neither was local, and both were hardened criminals-- Joseph Rosenbaum was a convicted child rapist, and Anthony Huber was a serial domestic violence offender. Maybe these two characters had travelled to Kenosha to participate in a strictly peaceful demonstration. Maybe not. We have no direct evidence either way, so here again I suppose you can believe whatever you want.
On the other hand, we have hundreds of videos of everyday trash humans looting, breaking windows, burning shit in the street. Take your pick. Here's one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6preTw28GWE. How many right-wing agitators do see there?
The riots in Minneapolis damaged or destroyed thousands of buildings, and some neighborhoods may never recover. Again, you're free to believe that this all the work of mysterious white supremacists or whatever, but you sure haven't given me any reason to believe one way or the other.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/23/texas-boogaloo...
>looting, breaking windows, burning shit in the street.
This is obviously not comparable to white supremacists setting police departments and other businesses on fire.
>you're free to believe that this all the work of mysterious white supremacists
Lazily erected argument, nobody in this thread claimed "all" since the extent is unknowable...
But be aware that those Boogaloo Bois aren't quite the white supremacist provocateurs you think they are. They are genuinely anti-government, and they hate cops. This guy wasn't there to make BLM look bad. He was there to help them fuck with the police.
> nobody in this thread claimed "all" since the extent is unknowable
Thing is, I strongly suspect that you actually believe that. I could be wrong-- just a feeling. You seem unable to acknowledge even the possibility that the BLM protesters were themselves responsible for a significant part of the violence and destruction, and appear to be desperately clawing for stories to prop up your narrative.
I on the other hand will freely admit that you might be right. Maybe the violence and destruction was significantly or even mostly the work of white supremacists, provocateures, state agents, whatever. But so far nobody including you has produced anything close to convincing. I'll keep looking though.
Have fun inside your head man, I'm out.
I see there was no comment on the trend of anti-blm views giving cops a pass on bad behavior rather than judging them similarly.
You're the one who seems to be selecting anecdotes to support your preferred narrative. Your narrative might well be true, but I haven't seen any good evidence one way or the other, an it appears you don't have any to offer.
How many cities saw protests and what percent saw violence. And I see now that Now it’s become “coincident” so not necessarily anything to do with the actual BLM movement.
After all this still no support for the broad generalization and this is such a broad claim it requires extensive support. And because you’re not calling all cops bad, it’s rather apparent that the standards of support and focus are very divergent.
Note, Fox News or Breitbart is not a credible source on this matter due to long demonstrated bias and mischaracterization about race. Although not even those were provided.
On the other hand my claim was narrow, that something existed to consider, not the extent of it.
Anyway, FIY between 93% and 96% of George Floyd murder protests saw no property damage. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/10/16/this-summ...
What percent of the 4 to 7 % where it did occur was due opportunistic looters, white nationalists causing trouble etc is not known, but I can’t stop anyone from intentionally ignoring those aspects.
The protests and riots happened at similar times but they were largely different groups with different agendas. In many cases the looting even happened while peaceful protests were happening elsewhere which diverted police resources.
And yeah people shouting things doesn’t mean they’re part of a BLM protest.
Just like not every Jan. 6 rioter is part of [insert right wing group here].
Life is more complex than that and just like the Rodney King riots, things start out about one thing and devolve into another thing all the time. Sometimes it’s just about looting, no political agenda, just taking what you can when there’s an opportunity. Just watch video of kids looting Beverly Hills or people streaming into Target and walking out with large screen TVs. No signs, no slogans, no organization, just theft.
Multiple things can happen at the same time and it doesn’t mean that BLM is out there coordinating violence or looting nation wide.
Your comment lacks supporting information and attempts to paint an entire political ideology with an overly broad, vague brush. Such comments do little to improve the quality of current discourse and are borderline polemic.
>The author is clearly trying to paint BLM as responsible for the property damage, which has been widely debunked.
This may be true, but you've provided no information to support your claim. What claims, specifically, have been debunked and by whom?
>It goes on and on reiterating the right-wing perspective of 2020 in an attempt to defend the data scientist.
"The right-wing perspective" is such a broad characterization and, as such, almost completely useless in this context. To which of the many perspectives of the right wing (conservative) political ideology do you refer?
You mention how challenging it has become to have a constructive conversation or debate on these topics -- and I largely agree -- but, with genuine respect, your comments here aren't constructive and contribute more to the challenge than the solution.
But as someone who’s searching for the injustice in this employee’s termination, I didn’t like how they went down the “blue bubble” checklist of BLM, white privilege, etc. in an exasperated undertone like: “Could you believe what these liberals at Reuters believe?” and “Can you believe this poor guy was fired for daring to have a different opinion?”
If you want me to have sympathy for this individual, tell me what he did and why it wasn’t a fireable offense per his employee contract/handbook. Instead the author is trying to poke at culture war points to win hearts while ignoring our minds.
Or if the employee contract / handbook is the problem, then focus on that.
> Christopher F. Rufo (born August 26, 1984)[1] is an American conservative activist.
So yeah, I’d say he’s biased. The article reads like an activist wrote it: little to no substance and tons of half-developed thoughts trying to appeal to people’s outrage.
1. Kriegman wrote a post critical of BLM.
2. He vetted it with HR and the head of DEI and incorporated their feedback.
3. He was harassed in a disgraceful and racist fashion on internal social media.
4. He complained about the harassment to his superiors via email after being banned from said internal social media.
5. He was fired.
All of this is documented on Kriegman's Substack with direct quotes from primary sources.
> Unfortunately, over the past few years I have grown more and more concerned about the damage that the movement is doing to many low income black communities. I have avidly followed the research on the movement and its impacts, which has led me, inexorably, to the conclusion that the claim at the heart of the movement, that police more readily shoot black people, is false and likely responsible for thousands of black people being murdered in the most disadvantaged communities in the country.
If you really care about minority communities but are not a part of that community, might want to throw us a few lines about what you’ve been doing outside of criticizing BLM to support these communities. History is filled with outsiders trying to “help” minorities and in tragically misguided ways. As any data scientist should know, communities, culture and data are complex. You can have theories, but to be so confident in something that you haven’t lived or experienced first hand raises a few flags. Naïve, but not fireable IMO.
> Unfortunately, in both our internal discussion and external coverage there seems to be a nearly absolute failure to examine the scholarly research, coming out of the most respected institutions in our country, which demonstrates the acute damage that the BLM movement is doing to many black communities, and the possibility that structural and systemic patterns in our society which have historically disenfranchised blacks are propelling the movement’s whirlwind rise.
A fireable offense. You can’t internally condemn the company you work for and expect to retain your job. The framing is harsh, judgmental and targets any employee who has participated in the coverage. It’s fine if you’re management, but as a data scientist that’s not your role. The world is more complex than the data you’re getting with can be inherently biased, underreported, etc. To think you have the correct answer based on numbers alone is pretty arrogant and not someone who I’d want on my team. It’s fine to scream “The data is showing ____”, but the lived experiences of people might be different and that’s why these conversations are complex and not as simple as 1+1=2.
> there is a substantial body of evidence establishing that members of different racial groups resist arrest at very different rates. Because the vast majority of potentially dangerous encounters happen when a suspect resists arrest, a greater rate of resisting arrest will be expected to increase the number of police shootings, even if police have absolutely no bias when deciding when to shoot.
Very narrow-sighted. Maybe groups that receive harsher sentences resist arrest more? And maybe resisting arrest shouldn’t be a lethal proposition? This is an incomplete look at a complex issue, which again posed with such conviction when a data scientist should know better is fireable IMO. I’d want my team to think a little deeper than this.
> The best explanation I can come up with for why a person (white, black or any other race) would support the BLM movement, is ignorance of even the most rudimentary facts.
Intellectually lazy. Even with the harshest view of BLM, you might assume that people join and support groups for personal / community reasons just as they do with any religion or sports team. Anyway, if you think anyone who supports BLM is dumb, you’re too biased to be in a reputable news organization IMO and firing is reasonable. Even if you don’t like BLM, think the data is clearly showing X while they’re saying Y, you can leave it at that without judging any labeling the supporters en mass.
> the BLM movement’s anti-police rhetoric and propaganda found a receptive audience
More judgement and labeling.
The article goes on, but it’s a rant and not worth debating point by point as it’s goes about 6” deep on an issue that’s close to 6’ deep. The length of the post itself is concerning, especially as others pointed out writing BLM essays on the internal message board wasn’t part of his job.
You might think his analysis is true, you might not, but at the end of the day I wouldn’t want any one of my employees posting something like this to an internal message board. It’s antagonist, judgmental, close-minded and absolutist. Not qualities I’d want in a data scientist at a news organization. Not to mention criticizing his colleagues and superiors publicly.
This wreaks of someone going out in a ball of flames rather than some innocent guy fired for having alternate beliefs.
Sorry to everyone who got excited by the title and thought the woke mob fired someone again. Turns out a data scientist went outside of his job description to publish a massive rant with poor conclusions and harsh criticism and got fired for it. As far as SJWs going too far, this one isn’t it.
> Larry Elder
> Hi Issac,
> Would you be available today Thursday January 6, 2022 to come Larry Elder's nationally syndicated radio show to discuss this.
> Isaac Kriegman
> Would love to be on the show. I'll email you.
FYI, Larry Elder is a conservative talk radio host: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larry_Elder
There’s a market for these sensationalized “fired for being conservative” stories.
> Action became more urgent when Thomson Reuters began to inject pro-BLM political propaganda into the workplace through a series of official company events that invited BLM activists to the company, where they proceeded to spread some of the very falsehoods that have so devastated disadvantaged black communities.
Yeah, sending an unsolicited mass Email accusing co-workers of promoting propaganda is not going to go over well. Harsh, abrasive language targeting co-workers and management is a 100% fireable offense.
> Almost immediately, my post started to receive a barrage of bizarre, hateful, abusive, and ultimately extremely racist comments from Thomson Reuters employees.
> For example, one commenter condemned the stats that I presented in my post (which were taken directly from official government sources) as “inaccurate”, “false and/or fraudulent”
That doesn’t sound hatful, abusive or extremely racist. But publicly condemning your colleagues without any reasonable evidence is a pretty sure fire way to get fired.
> Fully 13 Thomson Reuters employees expressed their approval of condemning my post based on this race fantasy by publicly "liking" it and attaching their names to it. If it were only a single disturbed individual it would be easier to ignore his troubling condemnation. However, with 13 people publicly expressing their agreement, it began to feel like there was some kind of group harassment going on.
Yikes, this again shows absolutely no rational thought process. And yeah calling your colleagues “disturbed individuals” means you’re going to get fired.
I didn’t read the rest, it’s just more ranting, name calling and whining. Either this guy is one of the most clueless people I’ve ever met on how to communicate and behave in a workplace environment or this was a largely intentional act to get fired in a blaze of virtue signaling to the right.
It’s fine if you want to die on a hill, but at least come prepared for the consequences. To write that post and unsolicited follow up Email berating his colleagues and bosses and be surprised at the consequences strikes me as one of the most naïve things I’ve ever seen or heard about in the workplace.
I hope his ideology is more important to him than his career because that’s the signal he’s broadcasting loud and clear. And there is some virtue in that, but then at least go work for someone who celebrates your ideology, don’t try to slam your ideology down people’s throats with a massive essay (with shaky conclusions) and then criticize them publicly in a mass Email when they’re offended by you.
Not everyone is going to agree with you and that’s pretty important to understand working at a traditional news agency.
With the “silence is violence” quip, this guy sounds like a pissed off conservative who tried to “own the libs”, but instead just disrespected his employer, bosses and colleagues and got fired for it.
Hopefully he has a career in data science for conservatives because it’s pretty clear he has no respect for those that disagree with him.