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Comment by adam_arthur | Hacker News Reader

I don't understand cyclists.

Unless there's a dedicated lane, you're putting your life in the hands of others... much moreso than being in a vehicle. I can appreciate the ideal of safe cycling on a road shared with cars, but it's not a reality.

There should just be separate lanes/carve out for bikes. Or, in a world of fully automated cars, cyclists can trust that they're safe. It's good to push for safety, but not realistic to expect it to happen fully in practice.

Personally I would love to cycle, but not a risk worth taking for me.

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Saying that cycling is dangerous because you are putting your life in the hands of car drivers isn't saying cycling is bad, it's saying cars are.

This is a very American problem. I do hate driving on roads here, but when I ride on roads in the EU (even on roads without dedicated cycling infrastructure) it's a completely different experience.

> Saying that cycling is dangerous because you are putting your life in the hands of car drivers isn't saying cycling is bad, it's saying cars are.

No, it's not saying that. It's not a statement about blame, it's a statement about risk. If a motor vehicle hits a cyclist, the cyclist may die. The motor vehicle may get scratched. This asymmetry is a physical fact, not a moral judgement. As a cyclist on a mixed road you rely on drivers to keep you safe.

I don't know about the EU (I imagine there's a wide range of behaviours) but I sure as hell wouldn't cycle on most of the major mixed roads in London because it just takes one bad driver, and I'd like to see my kids grow up.

The same is true as a driver or a pedestrian. Another driver could easily jump the curb and hit you on the sidewalk/pavement, or swerve into you from the opposite lane. And you will end up hurt.

As a cyclist when I hop on my bike I shut up, set aside my hot-takes on lane politics and driver-cycler relations, and adopt your attitude. Understanding that I'm utterly responsible for my life and can't trust anyone but myself makes me a more assertive and circumspect cyclist. Off my bike however...

> There should just be separate lanes/carve out for bikes.

This is highly controversial, and at best, overly simplistic. See for instance

https://www.enotrans.org/article/cycling-philosophies-collid...

"the vehicular cycling principle" – "Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles" -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Forester_(cyclist)

Forrester's "share the road" vehicular cycling view from the 1960s clearly fails in every wealthy country in which it remains the default option.

Here's a good HN debate on that topic, with several current commuter cyclists participating. The result is a lot more nuanced than "clearly fails".

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19634987&p=2

E.g.

  ahoy: I don't know a single cyclist who agrees with that (Forrester) statement.

 
  btrettel: I've been a transportation cyclist for roughly a decade and I agree with everything he said. Many cyclists do, particularly more experienced ones. Bike lanes can be helpful, but they are not the panacea many people make them out to be. I think the main benefit bike lanes have is increasing the number of cyclists which leads to the "safety in numbers" effect. I think far too many bike lanes are made poorly, however, and these ones seem to be less safe than if there was no bike lane.

I'm not sure what your link is supposed to show, but it seems to be pretty clearly in favor of separated bicycle infrastructure:

"When accounting for sidewalk riding, normalized risk along road segments and intersections, and riding in the opposite direction of traffic, the results of studies arguing for shared vehicle and bicycle infrastructure suggest that dedicating right-of-way to bicycles may, in fact, improve roadway safety. There are additional, more recent studies designed to assess safety differences between mixed traffic, bike lanes, buffered bike lanes, and separated paths that show safety in separation."

> I can appreciate the ideal of safe cycling on a road shared with cars, but it's not a reality.

It depends on where you bike. In some countries, pedestrians and cyclist are more considered. I cycled for ~200 km on a regular road around Geneva's lake some years ago, and I never felt endangered, as cars gave me plenty of space. In Norway, cars often slow down or stop if they think a pedestrian walking along the sidewalk could cross the road: sometimes I felt obliged to cross even if I didn't want to, just because the driver stopped.

Huh? It's a hobby and form of transit. What's there not to understand? In most places, including the majority of the USA the right to use bikes on the road is the law.

Even though it's not the norm, they're entitled to use the road, just like a car. It helps keep you healthy, and you feel the fresh air and world wiz by you. Somewhat like a motorbike. Interestingly, I harbor some of the same sentiments regarding motorbikes, as you do for bicycles.

I have to admit this is hypocritical, and maybe a bit bigoted (though I'm not a cyclist). I guess you could say it's green, but I think that argument could be made for motorbikes too. Anyway, I don't think I'd hold another driver responsible for causing an injury/death either way, unless it was a really horrible error, and/or that type of event was likely to harm someone anyway.

I agree about dedicated lanes, but even those can be pretty scary. Would really like to see divided lanes also, when possible.

Many (not all) cyclists seem to think that they are exempt from traffic laws just because they're not in a car.

Running through stop signs, red lights, not yielding the right of way, weaving back and forth across the shoulder into the lane, and most importantly a general lack of awareness that they're sharing the road with 1-ton hunks of metal flying by them at speed.

I've lost count of the number of close calls where I've had to slam the brakes and lay on the horn because some idiot on a bike wanted to play a game of gotcha with Isaac Newton.

I don't have any data to back it up but I'd be willing to bet that the people on bikes who do these kind of things are just as unaware and careless when they're operating a motor vehicle.

> Many (not all) cyclists seem to think that they are exempt from traffic laws just because they're not in a car.

But, at the same time, many (not all) motorists seem to think that they are exempt from traffic laws just because they're in a car.

I could walk to the nearest junction (~5 minutes from here) and find 20 cars jumping red lights, blocking a junction without a clear exit, randomly changing lanes, blocking a pedestrian crossing when it's green, etc. in 5 minutes of watching. And that's one junction on a semi-major road which is probably 10 miles of solid traffic in peak time.

The difference between the cyclist and motorist is these scenarios is that while both are dangerous and stupid, the motorist at least has the innate protection of the vehicle in case of an accident.

The cyclist has a helmet and if they're really lucky some Kevlar sewn into their gear.

In a collision 1 ton vehicle vs a couple hundred pounds of flesh and whatever the bike is made of, the 1 ton vehicle almost always wins.

Given the risk profile of cyclist versus vehicle you'd think that cyclists would be a bit more aware of their surroundings.

> Given the risk profile of cyclist versus vehicle you'd think that cyclists would be a bit more aware of their surroundings.

Given how dangerous a car is and how much disproportionate damage they can do to the people and property around them, you'd think that drivers would be a bit more aware of their surroundings.

Yes? I don't understand why you think you've got me in a gotcha here.

Did I say something that's making you think I don't believe drivers in vehicles shouldn't be more aware of their surroundings?

> I've lost count of the number of close calls where I've had to slam the brakes and lay on the horn because some idiot on a bike wanted to play a game of gotcha with Isaac Newton.

I've lost count of the number of close calls where I've had to slam the brakes because some idiot in a car wasn't paying attention and didn't see the cyclist who as just as much right to be on the road.

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