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Comment by Spooky23 | Hacker News Reader

The ineptitude of the state governments in DC/VA/MD is amazing to me. Snow happens in these places?

In this case, a major issue was that the weather was rain transitioning to heavy snowfall. VDOT couldn’t pre-treat the roads because the rain would wash it away, and they couldn’t clear the roads of snow fast enough to prevent ice formation. Similar to the Atlanta “snowmageddon” in 2014, once you have enough 18-wheelers stopped, they can’t start moving again on ice, and they (plus the normal car traffic) clog the roads enough that the snow trucks can’t operate. I am having difficulty envisioning how a hypercompetent northeastern DOT could do better in these circumstances, other than improved communication.

If you see it coming, maybe ban 18 wheelers temporarily? Agree it's not a major problem with the govt.

The major issue is that VA, for whatever reason, does not have plows and trucks to put them on (unlike say NYC that puts them on the garbage trucks when needed) - at least in numbers necessary to keep the highway relatively passable in the first place. As others have said, (relatively) heavy wet snow storms in VA/MA are not once in a century type events, more like every three to five years. Paying the consequences for failing to pay to be prepared.

The secondary issue is the stupidity of semi-drivers to have tried to keep driving in the storm. It wasn't like there was no warning at all. Reports I have read indicate disabled trucks are the largest impediment to getting things going again.

Does increased numbers of plows allow you to clean this portion of road quickly enough to keep it navigable? The main issue is that the road is a sheet of ice, so as I understand it you really need chemical treatments, not just snow removal (although snow removal should certainly help). And does the density of cars pose a unique problem? The F’burg portion of 95 sees around 130,000 cars/day pre-pandemic.

New York and Massachusetts are different, but usually the only thing that truly overwhelms them is lake effect snow in Western NY and some nor’easter events. I grew up in the NY metropolitan area, and things like flash floods ancient parkways in the Bronx were the only total disaster like this.

The key thing is that they have equipment and close roads to trucks. VA express lanes gouge drivers avoiding traffic, there should be plenty of money to put plows on 2 1/2 ton trucks.

I lived in Rochester. At least when I was up there, there may have been a hundred inches of snow in the year, but there was rarely fresh ice. This storm delivered a sheet of ice with snow on top, and because of the earlier rain, you couldn’t pre-treat the roads. How does the northeast deal with those conditions, other than people being smart enough to stay home? How do plows remove ice when the roads can’t be pretreated? I’m very, very open to the idea that VDOT is doing a bad job with winter road maintenance, but “more plows” isn’t a convincing improvement plan for the wintery mix seen here.

I currently live in Rochester and we recently just had a bit of a wintry mix the other day. Towns have their trucks going basically through the storm as it happens and they are able to prioritize emergency routes for both plowing and salt pretty well.Plus many folks up here are used to driving in these conditions and have the tires and or vehicles for it.

More plows in my opinion would definitely have helped as long as they were dispersing treated road salt. During snow storms, traffic on our interstates do not grind to a halt because there is a constant rotation of plows for every lane doing the best that they can to keep the priority routes clear.

MD not MA, MA is certainly prepared for snowstorms

This sort of weather pattern is not unusual at all. This is how winter is for the most part in places that have winter. I'd go out to clear snow off my car and find that my car would regularly be coated in an inch thick layer of ice from rain-turned-ice before the storm progressed to snow like a dozen times a month in the winter when I lived in the east.

VDOT could just close the freeway section in advance of the storm if they knew they didn't have the capacity to keep up with the snowfall and have the road be drive able, like other state DOTs do for their freeways when bad weather is coming. I feel like this must have been a textbook whiff in transit department circles.

I’ve lived here for decades, so I am very familiar with the weather here—I am of the opinion that it was an unusual volume of rain leading up to the snowfall, rain all night before transitioning to heavy snowfall early AM where I am.

Closing the freeway feels like a good idea, but then you’d have ~130,000 cars/day traveling on surface streets? The Rappahannock doesn’t allow for many crossings other than 95.

What happens is you close the freeway, it makes the news that its a bad storm and the freeway is closed, you call your boss (or if they are any good they'd call you) and say you along with everyone else is not going in, your kids aren't going to school, and the truckers sleep in their trucks at the gas station for the night. Then by the next day, or whenever the storm is over, roadworks will have had enough time to clear it off and salt it. That's how its done where it snows in other states.

I don’t see how you can stop, for example, the flow of Rt. 17 truck traffic onto I-95 diverting to the surface streets. Something like 75% of the 95 traffic in the affected section is not local. How do you ensure that they not use 95 and also not use the surface streets (which in this area are absolutely not capable of handling their current traffic, let alone overflow from the highway)?

You would divert them to some surface streets like 15, 1, 301, 66. You'd ensure they not use 95 by putting up a sign on the onramp that says road closed and you'd leave it unplowed while you focused your efforts on keeping other routes clear. Many trucks would probably just lay up at a gas station.

Are you familiar with the area? I’ve been here since ‘89. Those streets cannot handle the volume of traffic we’re talking about. There aren’t enough gas stations for the truck volume we’re talking about either.

There simply wouldn't be the normal volume of traffic on the roads if that interstate was closed. People would call off work and not drive to schools. The local roads will do fine with the remainder of people who absolutely cannot get off work during a blizzard, probably emergency workers. Plenty of major interstates that see huge volumes of traffic endure closures and the local community just responds accordingly.

I used to live in VA and how incredibly incompetent VDOT is baffles me. There's basically no public transport in the state, and the roads are still horrible. Where does the money go? They're building new lanes on the highways like SR66, but they're privately-funded hotlanes (toll lanes), not regular lanes.

I live in Seattle now, public transport is infinitely better, and the roads are better (though they still kinda suck). Baffles the mind.

> I live in Seattle now, public transport is infinitely better

Perhaps it's because of the bias one always seems to have against the infrastruture where they live, but until at least half of the planned light rail expansion opens up, I'm not exactly inclined to sing praises about Seattle's public transport. Virginia must be downright miserable.

Yeah, it is. For reference, I have a biological sister in VA, and a sister-in-law out here, both of whom can't drive. Both live a similar driving distance from the main city (DC vs Seattle).

My SIL can bus basically anywhere with enough patience. She goes to board game nights, college (pre-covid), etc.

My sister in VA can't go anywhere without getting a ride from my mom. She's actually only a few miles away from the one DC subway line that comes out in her direction, but despite having a disability that qualifies her for the public transport door-to-door vans, she's ever-so-slightly out of their service radius. Even if she could use that, that line is a commuter line that goes straight into DC, it's useless for anything else, and they heavily cut service due to covid + derailment incidents (inspectors were falsifying inspection reports) + car fires. She could use Uber or Lyft, but that's expensive and she's read about people getting assaulted and is scared to use it (I know it's rare, I've tried...)

So, yeah. I complain about Seattle PT too don't get me wrong, but thinking about other states does put it into perspective (even if thinking about Europe puts it into a different perspective...)

Snow actually didn't use to happen in those places. Not in this way. That's why the word "change" is in "climate change".

DC, btw, is not a state, and has no "state government".

> Snow actually didn't use to happen in those places. Not in this way. That's why the word "change" is in "climate change".

Grew up in DC, this is wrong. Large snowfall happens irregularly, but it absolutely happens.

The 2009-10 Nor'easters had substantially more snow than this.

See the charts here: https://www.washingtonpost.com/weather/2021/01/14/washington...

Grew up outside of DC. Snow absolutely happened then, and it was a standing joke that the Russians were investing in weather control so they could cause an inch of snow to shut down the city.

I still remember Feb 1979, when we got 2 feet of snow overnight and school was closed for a week.

What is new is the leaves coming off the trees in December instead of the end of October, and the common occurrence of 70 degree days in the winter.

It used to be that shorts weather at Christmas was something to remember and retell to the next generation. (That would be the year of the roller skates, and the horrifically muddy ski trip) Now it’s just last week.

You can be pedantic about it, but DC functions in many ways like a state government.

Snow has always happened. Large accumulations are atypical, but snow is a thing and Virginia is uniquely incompetent at handling it.

Everything south of the river is Virginia, and that is a state.

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