Hacker News Reader

Comment by dougmwne | Hacker News Reader

This sounds like a bit of a travel novel fantasy to me. Always the same obsession with meeting the “real” people of the place and making an “authentic “ connection. Fact is, most people have no interest in hanging with or babysitting a tourist for free. They have their own lives, routines, friends and hobbies to focus on. They have no need for your naïve perspective on their hometown. They have no interest in being a prop for your instagram or character in your stories. Other travelers are the perfect people to connect with. They are sharing your same moment and need to experience or consume a place. You have a shared interest in travel and specifically travel to this place. They are much more likely to be open to a new an temporary connection to spend the day with and will be open to trading the information that tourists need to navigate and experience a place.

View on HN

Not sure why you're denying the grandparent poster's reality.

Your response appears to be rooted in a rational conjecture of some sort. Do you have direct experience getting to know strangers while spending time in a foreign country?

I can speak from experience - there are people, nearly everywhere I've ever traveled (swaths of Asia, Europe, and South America), who are interested in speaking with me, so long as there is a reasonable way for us to communicate. It's as easy as expressing interest in their culture/town/business/activity and being generally friendly and positive.

edit: I should add, when I say "speaking with me," it infrequently goes beyond a simple brief conversation. Dozens of these interactions have turned into longer engagements, from dinner parties at people's homes, to activities like fishing, to being shown real locals spots. I have a loose network of "friends" all over the world now and have met a handful in my own country when they have visited.

Sure I do, and it’s usually based on a friend of a friend, a shared interest or from me being there a longer time. It comes through me engaging with them like a regular person, not some fetishized “local.”

I didn't read the post from person you responded to in the way that you did. I can agree that Instagram and the availability of cheaper travel has had the impact you describe. I think my initial language and description might have gravitated towards use of the word "local" but that's effectively used as shorthand. The assumption of most reasonable people is that you need to make connections with people.

This is such a cynical take. Some people travel to meet fun, interesting, and different people, while some locals are also interested in meeting fun, interesting, and different people.

Sure, you wont understand what it is really like to be a local resident from a single conversation, or spending a day together, but you can connect and learn more than you knew before.

You don't have to fetishize locals, to seek out their company and perspective over other tourists. Some of my fondest travel memories are from being invited into peoples homes for meals with their family, talking with them, and getting a tiny peak at their experience.

It all depends on where you go. Sure what you mentioned is a possibility if you are at some unknown south american destination vs brekenridge over Christmas break. American mountain communities for example HATE tourists for making everything crowded and unaffordable. It doesn't matter if you are "good tourist".

There are only so many tourist destinations to accommodate rising number of tourists every year. Every single place is overrun with mobs.

Backpacking to some remote asian town is fantasy not achievable to 99% of people with kids, mortgages , pets ,aging parents ect.

I've had the same experience. Both as a tourist and a native.

People are beyond friendly to tourists. In my younger days some Japanese tourists were so happy to meet me we took pictures.

As long as you respect no one owes you anything life is great. That said, I vastly prefer real life socialization over any app. The website being shown here is a bit counter productive. Your in a foreign country, just experience it. Don't stair at your phone all day.

> In my younger days some Japanese tourists were so happy to meet me we took pictures.

I am guessing you are white? I experienced something similar when we went to china, all the locals were mobbing white people in our group to take pictures with them. I am not white and no one bothered me :). Pictures with whites is a trophy for chinese locals?

We had some sort of "lunch with locals" where 'locals' were toasting to 'the beauty' of white women in our group. All non whites were completely ignored by the locals. I've never experienced such overt racism/sexism anywhere else, Really bizarre experience. screw the locals.

This doesn't align with what my friends have experienced. Regardless of skin tone they've been treated much better in Asia than in America.

China , even to my friends of color has been amazingly great. They tell me you will get stared at, but it's nothing compared to the open hostility faced in America on a day-to-day basis.

>This doesn't align with what my friends have experienced.

ok ? But you are white. yea?

What you described in your original comment is a white person experience. No asian is rushing to get their picture taken with an Indian, lol. I later learned that having your picture taken or having a white 'friend' is some sort of status symbol.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_monkey

> The phenomenon is based on the perception that association with foreigners, specifically white foreigners, can signify prestige, legitimacy, and international status.

> Regardless of skin tone they've been treated much better in Asia than in America.

This might be true but i was talking about overt racism. I've never experienced this total shameless overt racism outside china. It didn't even occur to 'locals' that totasting to white women's beauty had anything wrong with it, it just made sense to them that white = pretty.

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/opinion/rent-a-foreigner-...

" Clients can select from a menu of skin colors and nationalities; whites are the most desirable and expensive."

this shit is disgusting.

watch what the 'locals' think of you here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctbLEQCuJUg

This is a weird comment but I can't quite put a pin on why.

> ok ? But you are white. yea?

> What you described in your original comment is a white person experience. No asian is rushing to get their picture taken with an Indian, lol. I later learned that having your picture taken or having a white 'friend' is some sort of status symbol.

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_monkey

> > The phenomenon is based on the perception that association with foreigners, specifically white foreigners, can signify prestige, legitimacy, and international status.

> > Regardless of skin tone they've been treated much better in Asia than in America.

The second quote is not in the article. But this is:

> White monkey is a term used to refer to the phenomenon of white foreigners or immigrants in China ...

Emphasis mine. Setting aside the irony of complaining about racism and then failing to distinguish between Chinese and Japanese, I don't know why you felt the need to diminish the parent's experience in Japan.

The third part:

> https://www.nytimes.com/2015/04/28/opinion/rent-a-foreigner-...

> " Clients can select from a menu of skin colors and nationalities; whites are the most desirable and expensive."

> this shit is disgusting.

> watch what the 'locals' think of you here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctbLEQCuJUg

Ok, people prefer white skin in China. They also prefer it in India. It's pretty common in countries with a colonial "heritage", though I agree it's gross.

The second part:

> > Regardless of skin tone they've been treated much better in Asia than in America.

> This might be true but i was talking about overt racism. I've never experienced this total shameless overt racism outside china. It didn't even occur to 'locals' that totasting to white women's beauty had anything wrong with it, it just made sense to them that white = pretty.

Emphasis mine.

But then the parent comment stated:

> This doesn't align with what my friends have experienced. Regardless of skin tone they've been treated much better in Asia than in America.

> China , even to my friends of color has been amazingly great. They tell me you will get stared at, but it's nothing compared to the open hostility faced in America on a day-to-day basis.

Emphasis mine. So the parent was talking about overt racism too. They're both valid, I suppose.

I guess the reason why this comment feels weird is because it really feels like there is an undercurrent of genuine hatred for the Chinese, which you are trying to justify with an experience of colorism, despite the fact that India (which I'm assuming you're from? Since you mentioned "Indian") also has problems with preferring white skin. I guess you can hate both Indians and Chinese for colorism, but it feels like you are just using colorism as an excuse to hate the Chinese.

Sorry for being so accusatory. This comment just had a weird feeling I wanted to address.

Certainly in Asia people may be more polite about it… or you just might not understand when they use derogatory terms in their own language.

I’m white and I still hear people occasionally insulting me in their own language, thinking I don’t understand the words they use. It upsets me and it upsets my local girlfriend too. People are a*es and racist everywhere.

That said my experience with people in Asia has been overwhelmingly positive and that’s why I live here, even with the occasional rude comment and person taking a video of me while saying “botak”

You’re being downvoted but people who are at least a little familiar with Asia they’ll know how racist it is against people of color. Racisms in Asia is not only widespread but also out in the open, sometimes even against white people; Google “dame gaijin”

I’m in Indonesia and literally 2 weeks ago someone told me Papuan women are ugly because “they’re dark like Africans.” The Jakarta man telling me this wasn’t even light skinned.

Sorry, but that is not my experience at all.

There are a lot of people who are proud of where they live, and want to help you out in finding the best (non-touristic) spots.

> and want to help you out in finding the best (non-touristic) spots.

Not attacking you but what does "non-touristic" even mean though? If you wanna not be a tourist and "live like the locals" get a job and an apartment there and stay a while. If you are only there for a week you'll always be a tourist living like a tourist--you are a transient visitor and nothing more.

In my book, to not be a tourist and "live like a local" you'll need to immerse yourself in all the mundane, routine things people in that area do like:

  - Get a drivers license & register your car (if you have one)
  - Get a haircut
  - Go to the doctors office and the dentist
  - Purchase a new pair of shoes
  - Take your pet to the dentist
  - Have a meaningful opinion on some local political issue (I'd say vote, but that isn't always possible without actually being a citizen)
  - Go grocery shopping and purchase household sundries like toilet paper, paper towels, cleaning spray, brooms, etc.
  - Get mail and packages delivered to your residence
  - Speak to people in the native language. Be able to read it too.

I dunno. I've traveled more than the average person and I kinda think trying to "experience things like a local" just isn't possible or even desirable. You are a visitor. Embrace it. Only by moving there and living the mundane parts of life can you truly "live like a local".

That being said, I do understand the desire to escape the "tourist traps" and go somewhere that isn't just trinket shops and tacky shirts. I don't know if you need to know locals to find that stuff, I think you need to have an understanding of the kinds of things you like to see.

I agree. I'll add that I've known plenty of people who have done all the things you listed, and still aren't seen as a local, and are treated as more of a prop. This isn't just true of Americans going to other countries, but of people from other countries coming to America as well.

To me it means "being a better visitor" and "providing a better visit". The idea of living like a local is very extreme and not what I think the person that you replied to was really suggesting. The use of the term "non-touristic" is pretty common amongst non-native speakers, but it means a lot of different things.

I would only include a few of your bullets, begrudgingly, as things that I'd put in the "non-touristic" box. For example, someone if someone is trying to select a restaurant, then highlighting the more authentic options which resonate are something that I've had locals do on virtually every trip. Local people to me sometimes includes other business owners or tour guides I've encountered on the trip. I've normally done some research to find the the better spots, but a local person may know which one offers a particular delicacy that is prepared in a traditional way. They may even just know which one doesn't really require reservations.

As an example, I was in Kyoto in 2019 with my wife. For various reasons we got to our ryokan (guesthouse) later than expected. We were on the fence about planning a fancy Kaiseki meal later in the week for my birthday because only one of us is an adventurous eater. Our hosts asked us about our plans for the week, if we had food, etc., and suggested an amazing local place that we would never have found on our own. In a way it was intimidating given that no one spoke English, but our hosts had really greased the wheels with the husband and wife who ran the place. This is absolutely not the kind of setup and assistance that you get from a concierge in hotels where there is a degree of risk avoidance.

The mundane is only something you have time for on an extended trip. By the very nature of being long enough on a trip that your hair grows out, you'll likely need a trim. You may have the choice of somewhere that's easy and comfortable for a someone from a different place, or you may see that your comfort with the location has changed to open different possibilities. Of course, if you like to throw yourself into situations you can skip the haircut before leaving and try to find something when you arrive. Your personality impacts how comfortable you feel with that.

I was in Seoul for a conference a few years ago, and it was pretty obvious that there was a "tourist halo" around the Conrad and other big western hotels. Once you got outside that, you very quickly started to find eateries where they don't accept western credit cards, there's no English on the menu, and there might not even be a person on staff capable of speaking competent English.

But like, the small group I was with ended up at a place like this that did Korean BBQ: we showed the proprietor the cash we had, and basically they brought out a selection of delicious things, took our money, and that was that. I guess it's possible we might have been disappointed, but it ended up being a great experience, and certainly far more true to the experience of a local than eating in one of the hotel restaurants.

You're totally right! When I moved from the Bay Area to Saigon (first time living outside of the US), all of those things really were a fun challenge. The last one though is not so easy... Vietnamese is a painful language to learn beyond just simple things. Especially if you're tone deaf like I am.

Yeah but there is a middle ground. There is the fun local bar that's hidden on a back street, not the generic bar that most visitors are going to because it's recommended by everyone.

There are the beaches that locals party at or are empty, not the overcrowded ones that tour busses shuttle people to.

You can be a tourist and still get to experience the fun parts of life the way locals do, without having to get a 9-5 in the town.

Non-touristic doesn't mean you have to live like a local.

Let me give you an example. When we were traveling in Cuba, we met a fellow Flemisch guy, who seemed to know a lot of locals. We started talking. He was there visiting his ex-wifes Cuban family. He and his ex-brother in law invited us for dinner at their house in Santiago de Cuba. One of the best experiences I had, and I don't consider such a thing "touristic". You're not talking to a tour guide there.

A lot of times, the locals are very happy to interact with you. And coming from a western country, it always surprised me how welcoming other, poorer countries are.

So some background to my comment. I live in a tourist town. Tourists come for the weekend. Travelers come for 6 months to a year. There's a scene to traveling. Some people come, interact only with other travelers. Others interact with everyone.

When I travel abroad, it's for months at a time. I avoid the 'scene', not for disdain for tourists or other travelers, but because you miss some things. Not gonna say I specifically avoid ex-pats, just don't seek them out either. Some ex-pats form groups because they want a social life and are too lazy to learn the language, I'm not about that. But if I meet one, that's fine too.

I'm not traveling for Instagram clout, I just like it. My typical MO is to book a one way ticket, then spend months off the beaten path, working remote all the while. It's what I like. I meet people because I'm social (enough anyway, in many ways I'm introverted), not because I want something. And sometimes (usually) I just have a 5 minute conversation and it goes nowhere. Because people do have lives, yes. That's ok though. Same back home, if I sit at a bar and someone else strikes up a conversation, I engage or don't, depending on my mood. That's life. Truly good friends are rare anyway. And traveling 'friends' are usually just people who want a favour, in my experience. So I go places, am completely self-sufficient the whole way, I meet people, sometimes they stick around, often they don't.

Ok I get you and what I said really doesn’t apply to you. If you are going somewhere for months, you are way outside the tourist category. Someone coming for a month or a year is practically living there. And at that point you would want to associate with other people who live there, not tourists there for a weekend. Someone who has lived there all their life and is not very open to meeting new people may not been interested in engaging someone who will only be there for 6 months, but that seems like an entirety separate issue. After all, some people refuse to engage with anyone not born in their town and see even people who have been there for decades as outsiders.

Couchsurfing has been a thing for decades, so I don't know where you're coming from. Sure most people don't want to meet new people and hang out, but most people are happy sitting at home watching cable TV and eating delivery pizza every other night too. Who cares about them?

Different strokes I guess... I typically go places for 1-3 months at a time. And work as well. So, if I go to a bar in a foreign country and talk to people, it's the same as going to a bar and talking to people in my hometown. Not being a tourist that needs babysitting. Besides, you can usually knock off all the touristy "must do's" in a day or two anyway.

My experience matches yours pretty strongly. I've never really had an issue meeting individuals while traveling solo, it's more about when I'm in a group meeting other groups to temporarily add new faces to the mix. I also generally prefer to stay in some place at /least/ one month, and just live a "normal" life in a different location and meet some locals along the way.

Being there for a few months is a different animal. After a few weeks, you pretty much live there and are somewhat of a local yourself. You are no longer a tourist trying to collect an experience, just a person who happens to connect with another person. I was in Vienna recently for a month. We went to a couple of shared interest meetups with a mix of expats and Austrians. It didn’t really matter where folks were from or exactly hown long they’d been living in Vienna, we had come to connect on the common interest, not that we had a made friends with a “real Austrian”.

There's a bit of arrogance in the post you replied to. He stays away from tourists yet he's a tourist himself.

It's like a nerd staying away from other nerds because he's "better."

Arrogant and objectifying. Forcing their preconceptions of what a “local” would offer them onto other people who are just people.

Only if you insist on the most cynical and uncharitable reading of their comment possible. But that does seem to be the case, unfortunately!

I don't think it's controversial for someone to say: "When I travel, I'd rather have the company of people who live in the place I'm visiting, instead of other travelers". I struggle to see how the original comment conveyed much more than that.

I don't think that's it at all, as long as it's not going to absolute extremes. Let's say you are part of a tour, then you are cooped up with people the whole time. You are going to be experiencing all of the same things that others are for the whole trip. In many ways, I think the original post is about enabling this in other ways.

Any reasonable tour is going to make a very obvious effort to make it not feel this way be allowing you the flexibility to break off and see and do different things. This enriches the experience for both you and other participants because the different experiences are discussed and others go off and try the things that you've done. It is a major driver for the whole tour economy. If it was purely utilitarian then the tour company would package every piece of the experience.

When it comes to travel more generally, many people are extremely confined by touring. They want to have a completely individualized experience that takes them further away from seeing other tourists to varying degrees. If you are a reasonably well-to-do Brit, you will be keeping a wide berth from the other Brits that are at your destination from a package holiday because of the risk of loutish behavior, or bias on that.

Many tourists will plan to visit sites when other tourists will not be present. For example, staying locally near Plitvice Lakes in Croatia, so that you can get in before the tours arrive from the coastal towns. It's not that you care about the tourists that much as individuals, it's just that you would prefer to experience the place without the intensity of people. Or, you want to photos without people because you realize you'll actually spend more time blocking space waiting for a shot. Many times I've been that tourists that gets there early to avoid the tourists, only to stay and have an even better time.

The extremes are when people think they can assimilate into a culture immediately without effort. The growth in travel and Instagram trend has seen a rise in the number of checklist travelers who just drop in. People will go as far as inviting you into their homes in many places, but you need to make a genuine connection. During Ramadan in Istanbul I've seen tourists eating all day in pretty conspicuous fashion which they are free to do. By being more conscious of the fasting going on and being out and about for iftar you are going to be seen in different light by locals and the door will open to experiences you wouldn't otherwise get.

Ooh, startup idea: "Rent-A-Local" (needs better name)

It's a gig-economy thing where locals get paid to hang around and talk to you at popular tourist sites. For example, four older gentlemen playing dominoes at a small table in Santorini, and they let you join in on the game and converse in broken english. Or an older woman working at a pastry shop in Florence, and she invites her beautiful 19-year-old granddaughter Francesca to translate your questions. All of them: rented locals.

Doesn't Airbnb do this now?

Yes, it's called "experiences" and is advertised to you whenever you search for lodging. It's existed for at least 5 years, perhaps longer.

that exists https://www.savvyamigo.com/

If you are trying to get a local that you are making friends with, to be a prop in your stories for social media… you missed the point.

You should be trying to focus on learning about the culture and the places and people, not some followers you’ll never meet and making sure to get ig photos the whole day. That’s not connecting, it usery, to grow your internet fame. No surprise you can’t find willing participants.

Are you projecting? Maybe you haven’t met locals that wanted to take you around because that is the way you are treating them? I lived abroad for over a decade and I never had problems meeting locals or making friends with them. Generally I tried to avoid the selfie taking crowd of loud American tourists and brash military guys out on leave, like the other locals did.

And since you are living abroad, do you have a habit of meeting tourists just there for a holiday, ditching your plans for the day and giving them an impromptu city tour out of an upwelling of civic pride?

You're just describing the fact that there are, well, different people.

I am a local in the town I live in. I like to meet new people. I organise meetups for locals, tourists, travellers, whatever. I help people out if I see them staring at the Tube map.

Some of my friends don't do this, they have hobbies or work or whatever that they prioritise over it. Or they're just not that interested or social in the first place.

So when you are travelling, look for me and not my friends.

There are ten million of us, we are quite varied here.

I enjoy being the stereotypical Brit and waffling on about pubs and where the best chippy is and all of that.

> This sounds like a bit of a travel novel fantasy to me.

what are you talking about? I've been a digital nomad for a few years and locals LOVE meeting travelers. I get invited to parties and events more often in foreign countries than when I'm in my hone town. They themselves want to meet new people or practice their english skills.

I wouldn't assume any of those things about grandparent though. They haven't mentioned anything about wanting to be babysat, wanting a prop for instagram, etc. And many locals are often eager to meet tourists, specially in less visited places where they don't get to meet people from other countries too often.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com