Are there any legal or career consequences? Will multiple jobs show up on a background check?
I had a mentor once tell me that when developers take more than one full time contract at the same time, the only thing they have is two unhappy clients. If you were really industrious I could see you working a full time job and doing part time contract work after hours. Anymore more than that, you are just scamming the people paying you in my opinion. Also, it's a small world out there, tarnished reputations have a hard time finding good work.
>legal consequences
Not sure on this one. I don't know if it could be classified as criminal fraud or not, but you should be careful. The criminal justice system in the US certainly favors companies. Also, in the US anyone can sue anyone else for any reason in civil court. Legal defenses aren't cheap and companies have deep pockets.
All of my employee reviews have been stellar to meets expectations. I'm not even trying to be the best or even a good employee, just trying to get my work done.
> Anymore more than that, you are just scamming the people paying you in my opinion.
I've had a few people say something like this but I don't understand the logic of it. I get all my work done on time, and receive good reviews. I'm not expected to work a set number of hours. In fact, if things were flipped my employers would gladly have me do extra work for no extra money, I'm simply completing 40 hours of work in 10-15.
> Also, it's a small world out there, tarnished reputations have a hard time finding good work.
Nobody knows... so far :D
> I don't know if it could be classified as criminal fraud or not, but you should be careful.
I've asked a lawyer and the answer was "No, but maybe?" So a grey area I guess.
It depends.
When it comes to clients (in a freelancer context) there's usually a well-defined scope of work and deliverable. As long as that work & deliverable is delivered satisfactorily there shouldn't be a problem. Going above & beyond that for long periods of time is usually a waste of time if it isn't reciprocated in the form of better compensation for the next deal, and since the primary (only?) reason to take 2 jobs is money I'm assuming this clearly isn't happening here.
When it comes to employers, the scope of work/deliverable is less defined, but assuming he's meeting his employers' expectations and performance reviews, the same would apply - going above & beyond as an individual contributor is rarely monetarily rewarded from my experience, similar to how you need to switch jobs every few years to maximize your comp because companies don't adequately reward their existing employees.
> you are just scamming the people paying you in my opinion
I disagree.
The "scam" is that employers have a set of expectations (that they enforce via the job description/responsibilities and performance reviews) but want to extract more value beyond that without adequate compensation (otherwise the job responsibilities would include those duties to begin with, and prospective employees can judge whether the offered compensation is adequate) out of employees who might not be aware of their true market value. Employers are essentially gambling with undefined odds; I don't see anything wrong with skewing those odds in your favour.
If this guy can truly do their day's duties in 2 hours, their employer should either redraft their contract to expect 2 hours for the same pay or offer them 80% more pay to work the entire day. If the employer is not willing to do that I'd argue they are the ones scamming people.
Also, let's ignore the concept of multiple jobs and say he's working 2 hours and spending the rest of his time making art or some other non-lucrative activity. To the employer there should be no difference in either case.
> Also, it's a small world out there, tarnished reputations have a hard time finding good work.
1) He replied above with a breakdown of the comp - he's making ~900k total. If he can keep up the charade for a few years and save enough money to retire early, why does it matter? Industry people can be badmouthing him all they want, but he's got a nice house, maybe a family and a non-tech job just to occupy time.
As I grow older (in tech career terms) I realize more and more that the ideal of a "successful tech startup founder" staying in the industry forever is an unlikely dream and focusing on yourself is a better strategy for most people.
2) I have a hard time believing every shitty startup out there has some kind of direct line to a "registry of bad employees"; please correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like in the current market, short of a criminal record anyone can get a job provided they can put up with bullshit hiring processes & tech tests and have some experience.
5 times the pay, although that technically is >80%
Career consequence... well, I've had people work on my team before who clearly were working multiple jobs. They were not fooling us. But they got enough of the job done to be worth what we paid them, so we did not call them out on it. That being said, they were the first against the wall when the revolution came.
I'm fully ok with being let go first if there is a "revolution". I've never been let go or fired before, but I'm not willing to go the extra mile for the "opportunity" to not be let go if the company has issues.
In a startup, small company, or a role more critical to the strategy and core business, or a role with a less defined scope, I would not have let it slide.
To me, it is all about what the expected business relationship is. If I hire someone to do a specific scope and they get it done, that is one thing. If I hire them to a more generalized role whose job is to put a full-time effort into making the business succeed in whatever way they can, then I do expect full-time effort put into that job, and I expect them to look for more ways to help if there is spare time.
More important are trade secret issues. These are treated very seriously and can result in criminal penalties. So be super careful here - though different industries certainly help.
Not sure about the carrier consequences. Don't put overlapping jobs in your resume and make sure all your employers are satisfied. Quit some of your jobs if you're overwhelmed.
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The bosses liked him. He got a ton of work done.
The only thing I don't like is that people might feel scammed. If they know what you're doing there is no issue at all.
Regardless intent is a major aspect of ethics. If you told any one of your employers you have multiple other "full time" jobs, you'd be instantly fired. You know this. Therefore what you're doing is deceptive at best but more realistically you're blatantly scamming your employers.
Short term you'll make a lot of money, long term you're picking up pennies in front of a bull dozer.
As far as the money goes, my math goes like this:
- 1 job: 250-300K cash, 250-300K equity (at the high end, higher if I moved to management)
- 4 jobs: My current situation is 225K avg cash (including bonuses) per job, 100K avg equity per job
Also, I've been working like this for 4 years now (working between 2-4 jobs).
But let's say you pull this off. What then? You say you want to start a company but you're deluding yourself if you think it takes a couple million to do that. Constraints are a gift, you're more likely to burn through the couple million.
Maybe you could retire. But I don't get the impression you're the type of person to retire - you're already retired if your jobs take "5-10 hours a week".
So I have to ask what's the point of taking on the massive risk to your reputation? Is this something you're proud of? You're clearly already well off.
I'm pretty realistic about starting a company in the future. I'm not looking to invest and burn millions. I'd like to bootstrap with the benefit of having a very large backstop to my personal finances.
> Maybe you could retire. But I don't get the impression you're the type of person to retire - you're already retired if your jobs take "5-10 hours a week".
I think it's cool that you recognize that. Not a lot of people understand that I'm basically financially retired. I think that's the point for me. I don't actually think I'm financially retired yet, but soon. Once I'm done "needing" to make money I'll stop "working" altogether and keep on enjoying my life with my family. By no longer "working" I mean maybe working a single engineering job or getting a real job like a teacher or police officer. Something like that.
> So I have to ask what's the point of taking on the massive risk to your reputation? Is this something you're proud of? You're clearly already well off.
Not proud or ashamed. It's a neutral feeling of doing my work and getting paid for it. I come from a middle class background that was devastated by the financial crisis so I know from experience that "well off" is subjective and not fixed. Sure I'm worth a few million, but that could go away easily. I'll take my time off once I have 3-4 times what a normal person would consider "well off".
Startup as a side job? That would take a ton of work. I typically only spend about 10-15 hours per week working each job.
Then the obvious question is: How would you feel if you had an employee doing the same?
I would consider looking into why I'm not challenging this employee. Maybe they need to be paid more or given more difficult tasks. I would talk to them and see if they wanted more, if not, fine they're doing their work and I'm paying them appropriately. Pretty simple really.
What's the point of an employer getting upset about getting what they paid for?
If you an IC, getting the work done and your employers are happy, then good luck to you.
If your not pulling your weight, then likely you're putting work/stress on to others.
I suspect despite thinking your just doing your job, getting your tasks done etc, you're not really contributing in the spirit of what is asked, expected and what your have been entrusted to do. Perhaps the roles you have taken are very transactional (Jira ticket monkey) and you are expected just to do basic tasks and not contribute beyond explicit tasks, however in the many companies I've worked in the last 25 years that has almost never been the case. As a hiring manager I would likely feel you had betrayed my trust, and had taken the place of someone who could have contributed more.
The question shouldn't be about what is desired but what does the compensation warrant?
If employers truly want something done they are welcome to put it in the job responsibilities and prospective employees can decide whether the offered comp is worth it; essentially the market will sort things out.
Employers would ideally desire someone that does everything and takes no salary at all but the market thankfully prevents that from being viable. The next best thing is to burn employee goodwill by expecting them to do more "in the spirit" which is what's currently happening, and this goodwill is now starting to run out considering threads like this are appearing.
> As a hiring manager I would likely feel you had betrayed my trust, and had taken the place of someone who could have contributed more.
If you want something done why not just put it all in the job description? This is in jest, as we obviously both know why. I'm not faulting you from playing the game to your advantage, but I also can't fault the other side from playing the same game to their advantage.
Because that's entirely unrealistic (like you said, we both know that), and normally there are broad descriptions about 'enabling', 'supporting', 'growing', 'innovating' etc. If I could exactly specify what the every task was, then I'd program a computer to do it (half joking). Like I said I don't hire code machines, I hire people and typically if I just wanted Jira robots I'd outsource the project. As a senior or above (all that I hire) the bulk of the job isn't about writing code.
> The question shouldn't be about what is desired but what does the compensation warrant?
It sounds like he is getting well compensated, however, I see your point, and in my case its not about trying to squeeze more out of people for a lower cost, typically its more about developing people and growing skills and leadership.
I don't entirely disagree with the OP, my point is be careful with whom you do this with, in some places this is totally fine, in others its morally dishonest (less bothered personally about the contract stuff, as that is typically cookie cutter guff).
Also personally I found that the money wasn’t really worth it. I somehow just increased my cost of living and spent it all. Your mileage may vary.
To answer your original question—- the consequences probably won’t come from the employers, they will shake out in more subtle ways.
I think this is the real issue I've found. Employers will likely never find out, and will likely have no reason to pursue any legal issues as long as I don't share secrets. Your mental health can suffer if you're overworking or can't handle the juggling of multiple jobs.
As far as multiple jobs on the resume, my resume is pretty unimpressive. I just put the job I've been at longest. No issues finding new jobs. I can usually find a new job within 2-3 weeks of leaving one, been like that the past 10 years.
> Also personally I found that the money wasn’t really worth it. I somehow just increased my cost of living and spent it all. Your mileage may vary.
All depends on how much lifestyle creep you accept. I make 1m+/year and drive a 5 year old Honda. Not saying I don't spend money (I have a weakness for high end sushi), but you can definitely plan your spending quite easily with the extra money.
With that setup, I guarantee you aren’t objectively “good” at any of those jobs, even if your dozing managers think you are.
Creating things is about passion, and about thinking deeply about the problems you’re solving. You, like me, probably started coding for fun, because you enjoyed solving problems. Every day you context switch and de/reengage from the problems you’re solving, you miss that. Find a single problem and environment that challenges you, and I guarantee you’ll be happier, more successful, and less liable.
My job(s) aren't the source of my happiness and self satisfaction. I have a family and hobbies outside of work. My work simply funds my real life. I don't feel a need to be good at my job.
If anything, it sounds like tying your happiness to being "objectively good" at your job is a potentially dangerous mindset. If my superiors/reviewers think I'm "subjectively good" at my work and reward me for it, what does it matter if I'm not "objectively good". (Also, "objectively good" is subjective)
you're taking the low ground, and they're at sea level
They're the ones writing the paychecks - if they are satisfied with what they're buying, why work more for free? Considering companies rarely reward loyalty and you need to switch jobs every few years to get the market rate compensation you deserve, why do them any favours?
> Creating things is about passion
In your own project, sure, or if you are lucky to be financially independent and work out of boredom. But for most people having bills to pay and kids or cats to feed, work is primarily to put money on the table - the market doesn't really care about your passion and you might need to take a job you aren't passionate about.
Logistics of the job is the hardest part. Getting jobs as a US based employee with several years experience isn't too difficult. I can usually find a new remote Senior-Staff level job in a few weeks. Spamming indeed/linkedin job posts. I spam my applications and will interview anywhere, but I'm selective about choosing the job. I'm looking for low meeting culture jobs that fit my current schedule. Right now my three full time jobs only have a daily standup and the occasional bi-weekly planning session.
My day to day isn't too bad. Attend standups, write code without distraction. Honestly, two of the companies I work for are pretty dysfunctional so I go days without any work to do. It would be frustrating if I was a dedicated employee but I take it in stride since I can work on something else or do nothing. Dysfunctional companies (there are so many) are great for me in this setup.
I have tons of hobbies and a growing family. Wife, 2 dogs, multiple kids. On days when I don't have any real work to do I usually go out with the dogs for a couple hours, maybe hit up the climbing gym, read something (currently the Stormlight Archive). I'm fully aware I have a nice life haha. It's weird how some people in the comments mention that I would be happier doing something else, I'm super happy.
I'm not based on the US unfortunately, so I tend to ignore those job posts..
> I'm looking for low meeting culture jobs that fit my current schedule.
How do you know in advance if a job has that low meeting culture? Do you read glassdoor reviews, or something like that?
> Dysfunctional companies (there are so many) are great for me in this setup.
And how do you identify those dysfunctional companies as well? Or you try them and get out if they are not so dysfunctional for your like?
Hope you don't mind my questions, just trying to learn a little bit more about the "game"!
I'll like to another comment I made in this thread but I'll add on here as well. I try to find out as much as I can about the meeting culture in the interview. If it ends up being drastically different to the point where I feel like I was lied to, then I'll leave the job.
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29797183
> And how do you identify those dysfunctional companies as well? Or you try them and get out if they are not so dysfunctional for your like?
I'm not solely trying to find dysfunctional companies per se, but it does help if they are dysfunctional. Yeah, I have no problem leaving a company after a few months if I dislike their culture or theres no much work.
Legally, since you wrote SWE, then you should look up "Trolöshet mot huvudman" https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trol%C3%B6shet_mot_huvudman
If you have signed any NDA's or contracts, you should have read through them as it specifically says you are not allowed to work for any competitor or do competitive freelance work. If you ahve any side businesses they generally ahve to be approved by the Business Ethics department of the company legal team, and approved by your manager as not intruding in to your daily workload or competing with your job.
So you'd be pretty much fucked if they find out. At best you are fired. At worst you are looking at a legal suit, possibly even criminal suit if they decided to say that you stole company confidential information and provided to the other company.
Once that is done, it doesn't matter if they win or not, you'll be paying through the nose legal fees, and no one will ever hire you again in the business.
but hey if you can get away with it, there is money to be earned.
Though on a personal level, consider your mental health as well. How long are you able to keep up the charade? How will the stress affect you long term?
> Career wise, you if it gets know you'll likely never be trusted again.
I think one of the reasons I'm able to manage my mental health so well is that I try to maintain a long term perspective and I'm not worried about how I'm perceived in the present time. I'm never a jerk at work, I complete my work on time, do timely code reviews, and help out others. Friendly and professional but at a distance. I never go above and beyond my current work scope though. I'm ok with that. If someone finds out and doesn't trust me, that's cool. You're just a coworker to me. No hard feelings, I didn't consider you a friend and I don't consider you an enemy. We'll forget about each other in 2-3 years.
If it was me, I'd take the money made from one of the jobs and just invest in anything that can give me passive income streams, Like dividend yielding stocks, index funds, bonds, maybe even own some real estate that makes money passively and have a management service firm take care of it for me (yes it costs money, but at least I don't have to deal with it).
then figure out after a year or two if this is really the life you want to live, holding three jobs and then live the life I want not have to. But what do I know... im just a random yahoo on an internet forum ;-)
I've also worked plenty of places that only claim ownership of IP created on their time/equipment and not any/all random side projects you work on.
In places where the employer directly deducts taxes/social security and transfers them to the authorities, they might ask one of the employers if they're the "primary employer" or tell them that they need to contribute less because 2 other companies are also paying into the fund for the employee... at that point the jig could be up.
I wonder where OP works, and if he's wearing some nice Dunning-Kruger glasses...
I put on my employment tax forms that I have multiple jobs and pay estimated taxes. No issues so far.
As far as my glasses, I don't believe I've made any claims of being excellent or even proficient. I know what my employee reviews state, but as far as my own assessment of my skills, I'm below average as an engineer. I simply don't put in enough extra effort to be considered a good engineer.
- I live and work in the USA
- All roles are individual contributor roles ranging from Senior to Staff
- I work for one publicly traded company and do not purchase any of their stock in personal accountsAs for legality, unless you are a high level, executive position, I wouldn't worry about it. I assume you are discreet in your activities and do not draw attention to yourself. So you'd need to be discovered... Then someone has to care enough to do something about it... Then they have to actually sue you.
I'd be more worried about keeping your sanity. ;) How are you able to swing this, logistically? For example, how do you handle meeting conflicts? Are they in different time zones?
I deliberately don't accept promotions (to an extent) or respond to recruitment requests for any high level or management positions for that exact reason. I'm just another cog and I like it that way.
Logistics is tough. I have cycled through a few positions to find the right mix of meeting schedules. I try to work for low touch/low meeting culture companies that let me focus on my work. If there is an occasional meeting overlap I ask to reschedule due to personal conflict and there hasn't been a problem so far. Luckily remote friendly companies are low touch and tend not to micromanage my time.
Anyway, it sounds like you are living the dream if you can keep your sanity! Invest all that extra money and retire in a couple of years.
> Anyway, it sounds like you are living the dream if you can keep your sanity! Invest all that extra money and retire in a couple of years.
Thanks! I invest pretty much all my money in low cost index funds after paying my mortgage and bills. Can't complain about the return thus far!