Myopericarditis rates in young men after Covid-19 vaccine second dose [pdf]
medrxiv.org
medrxiv.org
The pericarditis wasn't registered as "caused by the vaccine", since it took three weeks before I finally got a hospital appointment, and by then it was too late to prove. I'm 31 years old and relatively fit and I've never had any issues until 7 days after the vaccine. So when this wasn't attributed to the vaccine, here in Denmark, what percentage of issues will be attributed to the vaccine in a country with a greater population density, like India?
As a consequence of this, I find the "~23 in a million" get heart complications highly questionable.
I've noticed my omega3 supplements help a lot though, as in, almost instantly. It comes back if I forget to take them for a few days too, so that's a possible cause as well. Just sucks to have that in the back of my mind.
age 12-17, 377 per million
Compare heart complications to heart complications. They are higher in COVID than the vaccine for any age group.
There is a higher risk to dying from a covid infection (at least with delta) than from the vaccine as far as we can see in the short term.
But there is still a risk from the vaccine.
If there was a train hurtling down the tracks about to kill five people many think they’d be able to push the switch to make it only kill one different person, yet I wouldn’t be able to do even that let alone the more intense situations from that scenario.
Thinking of people as numbers is what allows for someone to think it is ok to coerce people into getting vaccines.
Its not even in the same ballpark.
Specifically when it comes to myocarditis (which is even an issue for <40 apparently): https://vinayprasadmdmph.substack.com/p/uk-now-reports-myoca...
Also, note the higher relative risk only applies to the full moderna dose
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
I’m not saying that I don’t think myocarditis is a risk factor for kids and teens, just that this paper isn’t giving a quantitative assessment of its relative risk vs Covid. If you have seen research that does provide quantitative insight, I would be interested to read it; I have two kids under 5 and I’m still evaluating things.
Of myocarditis in kids (especially boys).
This is the pre-print I was thinking of: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.02.21267156v...
I have a pre-teen daughter myself and while she's not directly in a "risk-group" (like boys are) I wouldn't feel comfortable shoving jabs and boosters after boosters into her, when the benefits are dubious.
This is why many countries are holding off on vaccinating kids still, even though some countries like the US seem to be hellbent on vaccinating 100% at any cost.
Edit: The above study has risks broken up by which vaccines were administered as 1st/2nd (page 12). Interestingly Moderna+Pfizer seems to have no(!?) risk, whereas myocarditis is very high among Pfizer+Moderna. Not sure what to make of it.
Edit2: Keep in mind we haven't vaccinated <12 year olds extensively yet, but the data on young children is already worrisome (to the point where risks of myocarditis seem to outweigh risks of Covid).
Edit3: I'm myself double-jabbed, so not an antivaxxer per se, even though I'm classified as one as per "modern definition".
I don’t think the forever-recurring boosters are going to be a thing, it seems like cellular immunity is holding, and from the apparent drop off in myocarditis with greater spacing between doses one and two in this paper, that seems like evidence that 3-6 months would have been a better spacing than 3-4 weeks
> Interestingly Moderna+Pfizer seems to have no(!?) risk, whereas myocarditis is very high among Pfizer+Moderna. Not sure what to make of it.
I wouldn’t pay this much heed at all (based on this data at least). There were under 10k people in that first group (and zero cases of myocarditis), and the confidence intervals of the poisson regression overlap. You can even see from the figure how the model predicts a non-zero rate even though there were no actual cases!
People are not averages of the whole population. We would not need doctors if medical advice was this simple.
Forcing them to get the vaccine is crazy, especially when it doesn’t behave how the other vaccines do, and vaccinated people are both getting it and spreading it, albeit with far less severe symptoms than the unvaccinated person on average.
I think vaccines are amazing, these new covid ones, look to be reducing the symptoms of covid.
The idea of forcing it on folks when even vaccinated people are spreading it is absurd.
I wouldn’t have done any of that if I wasn’t vaccinated.
Consider that polio vaccination was never framed and exploited by political parties playing despicable red vs blue games with the public. The results, driven by information campaigns devoid of partisan politics, were a nearly universal state of vaccination, driving the disease more or less extinct. Trust in doctors and medical institutions was high and relatively untrammeled by partisan games.
The second that coronavirus vaccination became a political shibboleth for team blue, the current state of vaccine resistance became inevitable. Both parties are responsible for a lot of unnecessary death and suffering because of their willingness to never let a good crisis go to waste.
Throw in the general decline and corruption of institutions, lack of trust in public health agencies and even doctors in general, and you've got a mess of hyperpartisan unvaccinated conservative folks being shrieked at by the clueless but vaccinated team blue, and nobody credible or trusted able to bring the situation back to something resembling sanity.
From my personal experience and what I've heard online, that seems like wishful thinking. I know two people who had bad heart reactions to the vaccine whose doctors insisted it couldn't be from the vaccine and wouldn't speak of it being connected. And it seems like I've heard similar stories online dozens of times. My guess is the VAERS data dramatically undercounts incidents.
The Pfizer whistleblower paper claimed that even in the early days of the vaccine, internal Pfizer incidents weren't even reported. And given how hostile the entire internet is to discussions of vaccine safety, the idea that people are extremely reluctant to report vaccine injuries seems believable.
While I do acknowledge that there is a lot of misinformation on the topic out there, it was really weird to see an actual real person you know suffer from a side effect of a shot. I started to think that things aren't as simple as they seem to be advertised...
All this seems totally paranoid, i know. But i've also found numerus videos of actual doctors mentionning huge numbers of blood disorders in their own patients following the injection, so...
Is this the recommended explanation medical professionals should provide now when a patient has to spend 8 hours in ER, or is HN full medical experts in panic attacks?
----
> "You are experiencing a panic attack"
> "I am experiencing a panic attack"
> "These aren't the droids you're looking for"
> "These aren't the droids I'm looking for"
> "You will unvote anyone who disagrees with my argument"
> "I will unvote anyone who disagrees with your argument"
It's somewhat irrelevant what the rate is in past vaccines.
Two things seem pretty clear from the data. The first is that myocarditis rates are much higher in unvaccinated young men who get COVID than those who get the vaccine. And the second is that you almost certainly will get COVID eventually.
One hypothesis is that the spike protein in the vaccine is what causes the myocarditis. If you are scared of that, then you should be really scared of how much more spike protein you are going to have in your body if you get COVID unvaccinated. The spike protein in the vaccine does not replicate. In COVID, it obviously does. If I had to guess, I would say that anyone who gets myocarditis from the vaccine probably would have had a very bad time with COVID.
Not according to this data. Turns out that myocarditis rates are higher in vaccinated young men, the complete opposite of your clear data's claim!
https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.12.23.21268276v...
First the original study did not stratify based on age and sex - a huge failure because potential issue among young men was well known problem.
This preprint tries to fix this but as the original study compared also other cardiac adverse events like pericarditis and cardiac arrhythmias, the preprint does not. It is important because the rate of other complications was not elevated among vaccinated.
This study uses self-controlled case series. This means that they compare against previous incidence rates in the study group (vaccinated, covid-19). This would be possibly more or less fine if they compared two treatments but even then there is big potential for selection bias (the choice of treatment is based on preexisting conditions) but is even higher when you compare treatment and disease - covid-19 is harder for people with comorbidities, when you make a comparison within this group, you can most likely expect higher preexisting prevalence of heart conditions and therefor lower IRR.
This preprint and the orginal paper do not contain any mentioning of unvaccinated. It very likely means that the covid-19 group also contains patients who were vaccinated and had lower rate of AE.
Finally, this study design includes people with previous incidence. Hearth problems are very often recurrent. While it is important to know if vaccination of covid-19 will reintroduce the condition, it is not very interesting for most of the people because incidence rate of these conditions is very low. What is real interest here is how prevalent it is among people who did not have it previously.
Now I am really interested to find out the truth here. This preprint and the orginal study does not help me in this unfortunately.
There are now a multitude of studies indicating the prevelance of myocarditis from COVID 19. Many of which are broken down by age, so you can see how much higher the prevelance is vs vaccine side effects.
We have a pretty good idea of how bad the myocarditis issue for COVID is because we had a good long time without a vaccine. There were very large increases in myocarditis in 2020 vs 2019.
The real problem is that people like yourself jump to the first contradictory study you can find and tout it as proof or simply muddy the water from what many of the experts are saying. The reality on this particular issue is that quite a bit of research has already been done. A quick search will pull up multiple studies on myocarditis rates with covid, most of which have age breakdowns.
OP's preprint show a rate per million of 537 for young adult males on their second dose.
I would say the research definitely isn't conclusive yet. For young adults, whether the vaccine is safer than getting COVID is an open question, but we do know the absolute risk for both (vaccination or getting COVID) is small.
That study says 6x more likely to get myocarditis from COVID than vaccine. Specifically in young men.
These papers are not directly comparable.
Singer et al paper estimates first occurrence of myocarditis without any previous cardiovascular history and without previous vaccination against COVID-19. The OP paper does not have this specification so the results of these papers are not directly comparable.
In addition the Singer et al paper includes also pericarditis, myopericarditis (myocarditis and pericarditis occurring together) in addition to myocarditis. Considering that pericarditis is more prevalent in COVID-19 patients and is missing in vaccinated https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-021-01630-0 OP papers clearly is overestimating the difference.
And Omicron is so much milder it would be shocking if myocarditis rates remain higher than in vaccinations.
"The spike protein in the vaccine does not replicate. In COVID, it obviously does." This is misleading. The spike protein is created similarly in both cases, both from RNA being introduced into the cells.
"If I had to guess, I would say that anyone who gets myocarditis from the vaccine probably would have had a very bad time with COVID." This very much is a guess as we don't know the mechanism for what is causing myocarditis.
My guess is that we'll find much lower levels of vaccine myocarditis in countries which aspirate injections, dramatically lowering the rate of inadvertent intravenous injections. And we'll find that the cause of SARS-COV-2 myocarditis differs greatly from vaccine induced myocarditis.
It's milder when measured by overall hospitalization rates (covering vaccinated + unvaccinated + past infection), but is there evidence that it is milder for unvaccinated individuals specifically? Genuine question, happy to learn.
Good discussion of various pieces of the picture here: https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2021/12/23/omicron-post-9/
You don’t understand what people mean when they say that. The premise of everyone getting covid is based on the continued mutation and evolutionary pressure to more contagious and less deadly variants. The emergence of an Omicron-like variant is exactly what people meant when they said “everyone will get covid”.
Seasonal flu has r0 = 1.3. This means that it does not affect 75% of the population. The formula is p = 1 - (1/r0) to find out at what level of immunity the disease will die out.
Original Sars2 had r0 = 3, this meant that about 60% immunity level is needed. This is from where to original need of 70% of vaccinated comes from - vaccines do not give 100% immunity so you have to account for that.
Delta messed everything up. With p=85% and vaccine efficiency of 70% (because nobody, except Israelis dared to think about boosters first), you need more than 100% vaccinated - everyone gets is either vaccinated and lucky or vaccinated/unvaccinated and will get infected.
If you want the absolute safest option, then don't get the vaccine and take extreme precautions to avoid catching COVID. But that is unrealistic for the vast majority.
Wouldn't you need to look at the
P(covid | no_vaccine) * covid_myocarditus_risk
vs
P(covid | vaccine) * covid_myocarditus_risk + vaccine_myocarditus_risk
Also this should be during the vaccine covid prevention efficacy window
P(covid | no_vaccine) * covid_myocarditus_risk(no_vaccine)
vs
P(covid | vaccine) * covid_myocarditus_risk(vaccine) + vaccine_myocarditus_risk
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S00029...
referenced by this presentation: https://www.fda.gov/media/153514/download
I didn’t have any side effects with either SARS2 vaccines except for a sore arm, so who who knows what that was!
> During March 2020–January 2021, patients with COVID-19 had nearly 16 times the risk for myocarditis compared with patients who did not have COVID-19, and risk varied by sex and age.
> During March 2020–January 2021, the risk for myocarditis was 0.146% among patients with COVID-19 and 0.009% among patients without COVID-19. Among patients with COVID-19, the risk for myocarditis was higher among males (0.187%) than among females (0.109%) and was highest among adults aged ≥75 years (0.238%), 65–74 years (0.186%), and 50–64 years (0.155%) and among children aged <16 years (0.133%)
I don't get these numbers because the other original paper says the rate is 95.4 per million or 0.00954%, but that's well below the risk with or without COVID-19.
> We estimated a risk of 95.4 cases of myopericarditis per million second doses administered in patients age 12-39 which is higher than the incidence reported to US advisory committees
It is now obvious that the vaccines do not prevent covid. But do the vaccines reduce the likelihood of myocarditis for when I do catch covid? Or is it the same 150 per 100k that the CDC estimates?
For the record, that was obvious when the vaccines were released, as the trial results for vaccine effectiveness against infection for all the vaccines were clearly and widely reported to be significantly less than 100%. I think you may be referring to the lower effectiveness against new variants, which, again, was always reported as a possibility even before variants started appearing.
This was widely reported in the American and worldwide media.[3][4][5][6]
Fauci said the results were "extraordinary" and would "have a major impact on everything that we do with regard to COVID."[1]
>For the record, that was obvious when the vaccines were released
It doesn't seem obvious to me at all. Seems like an outright retelling of history. You should do a search for the period of November 1, 2020 to January 31, 2021 on this topic.
[0]: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta...
[1]: https://www.businessinsider.com/fauci-pfizer-vaccine-90-perc...
[3]: https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/2020/11/09/pfizer-coro...
[4]: https://theconversation.com/pfizer-vaccine-what-an-efficacy-...
[5]: https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54986208
[6]: https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/11/09/9330066...
You said…
> as the trial results for vaccine effectiveness against infection for all the vaccines were clearly and widely reported to be significantly less than 100%
This is not true.
Now you’re saying… I don’t know what you’re trying to say. That you understand basic arithmetic, but don’t understand how vaccine efficacy and herd immunity works?
> This is not true.
It is absolutely true. The difference between 0% and 5% is enormous, as I tried to illustrate with my example. Let me try again. If your doctor told you there was a 0% chance you have cancer vs a 5% chance, you would behave very differently, correct?
https://www.cdc.gov/vaccinesafety/ensuringsafety/monitoring/...
Note: VAERS accepts reports of adverse events and reactions that occur following vaccination. Healthcare providers, vaccine manufacturers, and the public can submit reports to the system. While very important in monitoring vaccine safety, VAERS reports alone cannot be used to determine if a vaccine caused or contributed to an adverse event or illness. The reports may contain information that is incomplete, inaccurate, coincidental, or unverifiable. In large part, reports to VAERS are voluntary, which means they are subject to biases. This creates specific limitations on how the data can be used scientifically. Data from VAERS reports should always be interpreted with these limitations in mind.
The inflammation may not be acute enough for a definitive diagnosis of myocarditis.
Go to a cardiologist and have a CT and MRI for a thorough diagnosis.
Do not dismiss chest pain
I got Pfizer each time, was a 34 year old male at the time.