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Total revisionism of the caste system. It was never about varna and choosing things. It’s always been about genetic lineage. The Gotras also include rarer ones like the Shatamarshana that go back to the Suryavamsha or the Solar dynasty. This Gothra allegedly had Rama among many of its descendants. Many kings have since claimed right to royalty based on this lineage. Even in Brahmins not everyone can do everything. If you removed all the other varnas, and left Brahminism alone, you would still find an internal caste system, a much smaller one than the current one but one nonetheless, in it.

Gothra being male reliant is pure patriarchy. The fact that a mother’s side bride getting married off to a groom from the joint family is common shows that it was a practice that has never had any regard to genetics.

This is pure whitewashing. You can admit the existence of embarrassing prejudices in the society including the Sati system which murdered wives when their husbands died. This does not necessarily take away from the other positives there might have been during the ancient times. Pretending problems aren’t real just makes them real.

> It was never about varna and choosing things

I have scriptural backing for this. What do you have?

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29754255

> The Gotras also include rarer ones like the Shatamarshana that go back to the Suryavamsha or the Solar dynasty

LMAO this is why half-baked knowledge of Sanatan Dharma is the worst thing ever. Suryavamsha itself means progeny of Surya. Who is Surya? Surya is the son of Kashyapa. One of the Rishis I mentioned already in the list above. I even mention in my first comment: "There are plenty more (who were descendents of these Rishis who also started their own lineage)."

There are close to 3000 such sub-Gotras. All of them trace back to these 7 Saptarishis and 1 other Rishi called Jambu. This makes it 7 primary and 1 secondary Gotra. All lineages post them are derived from these 8. Even Shatamarshana and other lineages (Suryavamshi/Chandravamshi etc) all converge to these 8 Gotras.

All the Devatas (Demigods/Dieties) are children of Kashyapa and Aditi. That is why the Devatas are also called "Adityas" because they are all born out of Aditi. Please don't throw around your half-baked knowledge of Sanatan Dharma and further corrupt the Religion. People like you, with horrible interpretations, are the reason we still have so many evil practices that exist in society today. Who just pretend to know everything and misguide the society but in reality have zero knowledge of our scriptures. I have studied it for 15 years now. Don't try to teach me what is in my own scriptures.

> Gothra being male reliant is pure patriarchy.

I already explained why it is so. This happens in Christianity, Judaism and Islam too. And so does in Sikhism, Buddhism, Zoroastrianism etc. The wife lives with her husband. It is very rare to find husband living with wives family and mostly happens in few societies that are Matriarchal since a very long time.

> The fact that a mother’s side bride getting married off to a groom from the joint family is common shows that it was a practice that has never had any regard to genetics.

LMAO how? Mother's side bride is not of the same Gotra as joint family she is married into. There won't be any genetic issues.

> Pretending problems aren’t real just makes them real

No where did I pretend problems aren't real.

> You can admit the existence of embarrassing prejudices in the society including the Sati system which murdered wives when their husbands died

Where did I say I won't admit?

> This is pure whitewashing

LMAO. Okay. So explaining that the scriptures do not even mention these customs and we should discard them is whitewashing now? I am literally advocating for removing/abolishing these customs/traditions that are not true to Dharma. You are arguing that I should not. Do you want these evil customs to remain?

Even if there was a Varna system, before it was solidified to maintain the status quo of the Brahmans, why do you say as if it was a good thing? The Varna system is an equally evil practice as it still creates hierarchical structures in the society and worse, it completely disregards dignity of labour. It shouldn't matter what your occupation is, you should have equal dignity in society.

> The Varna system is an equally evil practice as it still creates hierarchical structures in the society and worse, it completely disregards dignity of labour

First read about the Varna System. Or at least watch the videos that I have linked ([1] and [2] — Discourse by Padma Shri Bannanje Govindacharya — was one of the greatest Sanskrit Vidwans of our times) to actually understand what the System was about. There was no hierarchy. The hierarchy came about in Jati/Caste System. Misinformation is worse than ignorance. Misinformation corrodes society. In the Varna System all the Varnas were equally important. Nothing was superior or inferior. All were Moksha adhikaris (or were eligible for Moksha). Even more so Shudras. Because everyone is born a Shudra. Doesn't matter what Varna he adopts later (this process is called Dvija or second birth — where he chooses to become Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishya after the Upanayana Ceremony).

Do you know the meaning of Shudra in Sanskrit? It is a combination of two words: "Shuk" and "Dra". Shuk means "misery". Dra means "melt". So Shudra is one who melts for others miseries. Shudra is the basic quality that defines a human being (one who melts for others miseries). You cannot be a human being without first being a Shudra. No where in the Dharma Shastras is it written that you have to discriminate against a Shudra. Most of these discriminations stem from medieval practices of Jati/Caste System which go completely against Dharma and should be abolished.

To give you few examples: There is a Vedic story (Chandogaya Upanishad) of Satyakama who was raised by his mother Jabali. When he was just 5 years old, he goes to Rishi Haridrumata Gautama asking permission to study the Vedas. The Rishi asks him who is father is. Satyakama wouldn't know the answer and says he'll enquire from his mother about the name of his father as well as his father's Gotra. When he asks his mother Jabali, she says that she worked in multiple homes in her youth and doesn't really know who his father was (or in other words she worked as a prostitute). Satyakama goes back to Rishi Haridrumata Gautama and tells him whatever his mother told him. The Rishi, pleased with the boy's honesty, declares that he has qualities of a Brahmana as he demonstrated that he did not hide his reality. And because of which his quality is that of a Brahmana. So is the true seeker of Brahman/God. Rishi Haridrumata Gautama accepts him as his disciple and imparts Vedic knowledge.

To make it even more explicit: All the Vedas were compiled by Krishna Dvaipayana Vyasa (popularly known as Veda Vyasa). Veda Vyasa was born to a Shudra mother (who was co-incidentally a fisherwoman by name of Matsyagandha/Satyavati; saying so because your username says "IndianFisherman"). That itself should make it clear to you that we did not have Caste System but Varna System. There was no hierarchy. This hierarchy came into play only in modern times. If the Compiler of the Vedas was himself born to a Shudra mother where does the question of Shudras being inferior to Brahmins arise from?

We all bow to that great Vyasa who gave us the Vedas.

[1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrLtG-iM_e0

[2]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV3v7_y97x0

There is no hierarchy in the varna system. The varna system as mentioned in the Zoroastrian Avesta has a lot of similarities with Vedic scriptures..neither mentions hierarchies.

Also..all Hindu gods are non-Brahmins..Rama was Kshatriya and Lakshmana’s mother Sumitra was a Shudra. Krishna was from a family of land owning cowherds. Many southern dynasties had Shudra kings esp in the south. Vishwamitra was a Kshatriya who became a Brahmin and parasurama was a Brahmin who became a warrior/Kshatriya. Valmiki who also wrote Ramayana that is read as a holy text in india today was a Hunter and a butcher.

The word ‘caste’ is from the Portuguese word ‘casta’ and a later invention.

I like that all this is discussed openly these days. Maybe people can be educated from the original texts and scriptures. Time to fix the colonial and invaders’ mischiefs.

There never was a varna system. You are just repeating Arya Samajist fantasies that anachronistically project modern ideas back. For instance those same grhyasutras that mention not marrying sagotra also mention the rathakara as an example of a jati that does not belong to a varna.

I think a lot of the criticism of caste is based on silly assumptions but it will not help to defend if we make our own silly assumptions.

> There never was a varna system

I do not say anything without scriptural backing.

> You are just repeating Arya Samajist fantasies

Are you an expert in this? I think not. Let me give you two videos of Padma Shri Bannanje Govindacharya who quotes directly from Vedic scriptures and Puranas to show that Varna System existed in the Vedic times (the videos have English Subtitles):

1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WrLtG-iM_e0

2. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jV3v7_y97x0

To give some background on Bannanje Govindacharya: He was an Indian philosopher and Sanskrit scholar versed in Veda Bhashya, Upanishad Bhashya, Mahabharata, Puranas and Ramayana. He wrote Bhashyas or commentaries on Veda Suktas, Upanishads, ShataRudriya, BrahmaSutra Bhashya, Gita Bhashya and was an orator. He was awarded the Padma Shri by the Government of India in 2009.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bannanje_Govindacharya

> rathakara as an example of a jati that does not belong to a varna

This was based on incorrect translations provided by Western Indologists like Albrecht Weber. It is time we stop using Western Indologists to interpret and translate our own scriptures. We have enough experts in India who know how to translate correctly.

> most of these communities are closely knit. So they'll know immediately if you are faking i

For marriage that’s one thing. But what about other aspects. Would a person have difficulty being hired without a genealogical backstory? How?

> Would a person have difficulty being hired without a genealogical backstory? How?

They don't need a genealogical backstory because you need to understand that the population of Upper Castes in India is actually in the minority (approximately 28%). You can say that the Degree of Separation between you and someone else is probably at best 2 or 3. You can easily find out if the person is who he claims he is by just checking social media and seeing his relations etc. If you want to fake your caste, you will have to get your entire relations to change their caste names. It is not realistically feasible.

Like I said, the only solution to this is abolishing Caste System and bringing back the Varna System. Varnas were what it was originally. It was based on Vedic Scriptures. Caste System is a corruption of it and should be discarded. The sad part is that more than Upper Castes, the Caste system is highly prevalent in Lower Castes. We also have a Reservation System that guarantees a "Quota" for Lower Castes. So instead of abolishing we have ended up cementing the Caste System further. Please keep in mind that Reservation System is not the same as Affirmative Action in USA. It is completely different.

However, if a Company is hiring based on your surname, then you really need to question if the Company is the right fit for you. Forget whether it is moral or not. Such Companies won't sustain for very long.

If I am looking to hire, I want the best talent. I don't give two hoots to who you are, which Religion you profess, which Creed you belong to, which Caste you were born into or if you think i'll go to Hell. I care about bottom line. So I can go home richer than I was yesterday. Why would I want to deliberately sabotage it by focusing on surnames instead of talent? The Companies that do this won't survive for long.

But to answer your question directly: I know Companies that have this culture. They are wrong and will pay for it sooner than later.

I didn’t mean faking some small upper caste clique, but rather someone from a really “bad” caste simply getting rid of their backstory by assuming an identity in some very common caste. I couldn’t pretend to be royalty in Europe either. Such as when taking a new name - theirs are (surprise) not available to take.

The difference is that while we have the small majority genealogical nobility in Europe too, the more problematic one to me is the opposite where people are born into lower castes. That’s what I’m wondering if someone in India could somehow get rid of (if they are willing to e.g move and break with family). Not if they could fake their way into the small top minority.

> some very common caste

Per 2019 statistics [1], 41% of Indians belong to OBC or Other Backward Class. Dalits are 20%. Scheduled Tribes are 9%. Forward/Upper Caste is 30%. So which caste should they navigate to per your opinion?

Also, is the person willing to give up all the benefits Constitution guarantees for lower castes? Especially give up Caste certificates that give scholarships, subsidies, affordable housing, Government jobs, Education quota etc? I don't think so.

> taking a new name

Even if you take a new name, Indians are by nature curious. We would like to know your background some way or the other.

That fact of the matter is that it cannot happen unless the Caste System is itself abolished and Varna System adopted. But this change has to happen through society and not through Law (because if you try to do it through Law, Lower Castes will be the first to revolt as it will affect their Reservation Opportunities which they don't want to lose). This change will happen when Indians read translations of our scriptures written by Indian Sanskrit Experts and not Western Indologists (who took assistance from conniving upper castes in the medieval times as well as having their own self-interests). This requires a social change that should percolate to the grassroots (especially rural areas).

Merely changing your name might only take you down the path for sometime. But sooner than later someone will discover your past somehow. It probably would have been possible 20-30 years ago when we had no internet and connectivity. Now everyone is on social media. You have a social graph available at your fingertips. There is no way to wipe off your past so to speak. This is probably possible with Personal Data Protection Bill that Indian Government might bring in sometime in the future. But until then, at least your digital footprint is left behind.

[1]: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1001016/india-population...

Your entire comment reeks of upper caste privilege. How can you blame 70 year old practice of reservation compared to a 2000-year-old practice of caste discrimination towards cementing of the caste system. Reservation is to increase representation of the backward castes in the higher strata of society and not to help the "poor". All the Supreme Court Chief Justices have been Brahmins. There are barely 4 Bahujan ministers in the cabinet. Reservation is about more than mere "helping" those who are "underprivileged". Upper castes need to first understand that.

This is not denying that politicians are exploiting the reservation system to gain votes and remain in power.

> How can you blame 70 year old practice of reservation

I am not blaming it just for sake of it. I am saying that Reservation in India is not the same as Affirmative Action in USA. There is no Quota System in USA. Current Reservation in India is actually reverse discrimination. Even B R Ambedkar wanted Reservation to only last for 10 years and not more because of its obvious discriminatory nature. It is totally against Article 14 of Indian Constitution that guarantees Equality. Instead of Reservation we need something like Affirmative Action that USA has. I am not saying discrimination was not done by upper castes. It was done. The solution to that cannot be reverse discrimination. That is revenge. It is not justice. Instead provide equal opportunity for all and lift those who were suppressed due to discrimination with scholarships, funding, free/affordable housing, free education and healthcare. We need upliftment not another form of discrimination all over again.

> All the Supreme Court Chief Justices have been Brahmins

That's patently false. We have had Sarv Mittra Sikri (an SC) as Supreme Court Chief Justice. Chief Justice S Rajendra Babu was OBC. Chief Justice R. M. Lodha who was OBC. All 3 are non-Brahmin Bahujan Chief Justices.

Apart from that we even have had Judges from minority Religion occupy Chief Justice position too.

Full list of non-Brahmin Chief Justices of India (18 out of 44 or roughly 40% of Chief Justices of India were non-Brahmin):

1. Hon’ble Mr. Justice Harilal Jekisundas Kania

2. Hon’ble Mr. Justice M. Hidayatullah

3. Hon’ble Mr. Justice J.C. Shah

4. Hon’ble Mr. Justice S.M. Sikri

5. Hon’ble Mr. Justice M. Hameedullah Beg

6. Hon’ble Mr. Justice K.N. Singh

7. Hon’ble Mr. Justice A.M. Ahmadi

8. Hon’ble Mr. Justice J.S. Verma

9. Hon’ble Mr. Justice S.P. Bharucha

10. Hon’ble Mr. Justice B.N. Kirpal

11. Hon’ble Mr. Justice S. Rajendra Babu

12. Hon’ble Mr. Justice R.C. Lahoti

13. Hon’ble Mr. Justice Y.K. Sabharwal

14. Hon'ble Mr. Justice S.H. Kapadia

15. Hon'ble Mr. Justice Altamas Kabir

16. Hon'ble Mr. Justice R. M. Lodha

17. Hon'ble Mr. Justice T.S. Thakur

18. Hon'ble Mr. Justice J.S. Khehar

> There are barely 4 Bahujan ministers in the cabinet

We have had plenty of Bahujan ministers holding major portfolios since 1947. Our President is Dalit and our Prime Minister is OBC. Two of the most important positions in our Republic. What more do you need?

Its pretty hard to fake everything. Every 'caste' has different culture.

> The only remedy is to go back to Varna System and completely abolish the Caste System as it originally was.

Why would you think the only alternative to a caste system be a 2500 years old one? This just seem like a false dichotomy.

> Why would you think the only alternative to a caste system be a 2500 years old one? This just seem like a false dichotomy.

We are talking about region, culture and tradition here which need to be preserved. If you are not an Indian you won't understand this. It doesn't apply to you.

> which need to be preserved

That seems to be putting the horse before the cart.

Where does 2500 years come from when genetics shows around 1200 BC was when endogamy took hold in Indian subcontinent?

> was when endogamy took hold in Indian subcontinent?

Nope. Gotra is exogamous not endogamous. You can't marry within the same Gotra. That would become incestuous. You can only marry a person from another Gotra. Even Gotra combinations are created based on Vedic Astrology to ensure only the best match is possible.

> Where does 2500 years come from when genetics shows around 1200 BC

Vedic History is far older. Oldest surviving manuscript of Rig Veda dates to 1800 BCE [1]. Other Vedas dates to 1200-900 BCE. However the Vedas are themselves eternal having passed down through generations by word of mouth since start of Creation. Brahman/God transmitted this knowledge throughout the Creation which was heard by enlightened beings called the Rishis. They then transmitted that knowledge down to their disciples. That knowledge was only recently written down in manuscripts (those that survive are dated 1500 BCE-900 BCE). I say "recently" because the timelines are huge in Sanatan Dharma. But that is for another topic.

The Rishis mentioned in the Vedas are as old as the Creation itself through whom the respective lineage started. If Abrahamic Religions believe Adam and Eve to be the progenitors of human race, Dharmic Religions have Manu as progenitor (the word Manushya is derived from his name). The difference is that in Dharmic Religions the details of the Gotra is passed down through generations (starting from the Saptarishis: Agastya, Atri, Bhardvaja, Gautama, Jamadagni, Vashistha, Vishvamitra and Jambu) including information on who started the lineage. So we know which Gotra we belong to. That makes it easy to not enter into incestual relationships unknowingly.

[1] https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/rig-veda-manuscrip...

> Oldest surviving manuscript of Rig Veda dates to 1800 BCE

Wait, what? From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda :

> The oldest surviving manuscripts have been discovered in Nepal and date to c. 1040 CE

Where did you suddenly get manuscripts ~2800 years older? When was this big news published?

> The oldest surviving manuscripts have been discovered in Nepal and date to c. 1040 CE

Wikipedia is out of date here. It is quite possible some editor in Wikipedia forgot to update the date.

> Where did you suddenly get manuscripts ~2800 years older? When was this big news published?

I already provided the link in the explanation itself.

It was published in multiple news outlets. Here is another from Financial Express: https://www.financialexpress.com/archive/rig-veda-manuscript...

"UNESCOs Heritage Register list items of literary heritage with exceptional value identified by International Advisory Committee and endorsed by Director General of UNESCO.

This year it selected 38 such items, of which 30 are Rigveda scriptures kept in BORI.

The Institute gets grant from New Delhi-based government department for conserving manuscripts, National Manuscript Mission (NMM). It had arranged an exhibition in Germany recently. UNSECO persons visiting this exhibition, selected 30 manuscripts of Rigveda, Dhadphale said over telephone from Pune.

The manuscripts are dated from 1800-1500 BC and it is the first and perhaps oldest book in literature, Dhadphale said."

From what I understand, the texts are perhaps from 1800-1500 BCE but the manuscripts aren't. That ancient and medieval manuscripts are almost universally younger copies of older texts is common knowledge. The oldest manuscript in the set of "30 Rigveda scriptures kept in BORI" that you're presumably referring to dates back only to 1464 CE: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.403...

> 5. Oldest Dated Manuscript:

> No. 5/1882-83 (1464 AD)

> ...

> There are 30 manuscripts of Rigveda at the Institute, collected from different parts of India like Kashmir, Gujarat, the then Rajaputana, Central Provinces etc. They are written in Sharada, Devanagari and Devanagari with Prishthamatra and the material used for writing is birch bark as well as paper. The oldest of these manuscripts is dated 1464 A. D.

So if these are the texts you're referring to, then Wikipedia is not out of date here and your information is simply wrong. Not even the UNESCO nomination text attempts to claim that these manuscripts are three thousand years older than how old they actually are.

Thanks for the detailed insight!