How to help a friend who lost their home in a fire (2020) | Hacker News Reader

How to help a friend who lost their home in a fire (2020)

sonomamag.com

90 pointsdredmorbius42 comments

A close relative's house burned this fall, so I can relate to this subject. It was in western Europe, so it probably differs from the US experience: insurance was a great help, and other structures (e.g. municipality) are now involved in building back the house. Unlike the article, it was not a from a large scale fire, so neighbor solidarity was very important and very useful.

In the case I know, the most important point was that the family could take care of the young children for the first week, which is the most chaotic. It also softened their trauma.

Another important point is to deal with the jobs: explain what happened, try to find temporary adjustments (co-workers and hierarchy were great in this case), and if working gets too hard, ask for a sick leave. I couldn't do any of this myself, but talking about it with the victims is essential.

Apart from this, all the points 1-9 of the article are valid and important. Especially in 1, "sift through ashes for remnants of cherished belongings", which is so heartbreaking for the house owners that it shouldn't be done alone.

Great post. And the timing as well for me because we almost lost our home to a fire just a few days ago. Someone bought the 5 acre lot next to our place recently and about a month ago they hired a guy with bulldozer who's been knocking down almost every tree and all the brush and piling it up and burning it, and then leaving the fire unattended all night and on the weekends.

It burned for three weeks before it spread to our place and it was pure luck that one of our daughters and a granddaughter took a bag of garbage out just a bit after midnight and saw it burning on our property.

It was pretty much inevitable it would do that and pure stupidity on their part, but legal where we live to do that. But there are laws that make it clear you're responsible to keep it under control and liagle for any damage that occurs if the fire crosses your property line.

There were seven of us here so we called 911 and then ran outside and started raking leaves and dead fall away from our old wooden barn and chicken coop to create a firebreak. The fire was less than 30 feet from the barn and it would've been no more than 10 minutes at most before it would've caught fire. From there it would have spread fast to our house.

When the firefighters showed up they asked us to get out of their way, which of course we did. Then they spent about 4 hours getting it under control.

Since then we've had many neighbors and locals reach out and offer help and that's been incredibly heartwarming. The guy who bought that property hasn't contacted us though. He owns a construction company but I'm pretty sure he bought that lot to build a home for himself so it's in his best interest to reach out and apologize, but so far nothing at all.

Considering you (or your insurance company) might have a legal case against them, it would seem to be in the adjacent property owner’s best interest to only communicate via lawyers to limit their potential losses.

If you're going to be neighbors, I think it's more important to deliver a sincere apology. Then again, from the behavior leading up to this it doesn't sound like the new owner cares too much about positive relationships with neighbors.

Some Canadian provinces [1] and US states are beginning to adopt laws that apologies don't constitute an admission of liability. Hopefully, these catch on - it's ridiculous that we have to be so guarded about basic human decency because of the threat of litigation.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apology_Act,_2009

> Considering you (or your insurance company) might have a legal case against them, it would seem to be in the adjacent property owner’s best interest to only communicate via lawyers to limit their potential losses.

This line of thought seems common, but I think it's incorrect as well as immoral. Personally, I'd be far more likely to be lenient on someone who sincerely apologized. When someone doesn't admit fault, I'd be more likely to use the legal system to declare them at fault and seek the maximum damages. I don't think I'm alone. There have been studies on this, mostly in the context of medical mistakes. https://www.calbarjournal.com/July2010/TopHeadlines/TH1.aspx

It depends what the expected value of the loss is. Based on the story above, I assume they are looking at a minimum of 6 figures, possibly even 7 figures. At that point, it could be about livelihoods, and the risk tolerances get much smaller.

If I am the person whose house was burned down, even with an apology, I am not going to be lenient on replacing what I lost, which is at least 6 figures worth. If the insurance company is involved, they are definitely not going to care about apologies, just getting all of their costs covered.

Edit: ignore everything I wrote. I thought the OP had lost their home due to the neighbor burning stuff on their land. I lazily missed the word “almost”, in which case, since there are no large damages for the negligent neighbor to worry about, I agree that an apology is at least warranted.

I think I'm missing something - the story above is about how the neighbor's contractor didn't control their fires so the author's family had to rake leaves in the middle of the night to avoid their house burning down, yes?

At this point it seems like there's no "real" damage done so the person who's responsible for the fire couldn't be sued for anything.

My understanding is that the neighbors et al expressed support because they all understand how close to disaster this was, not because there was a disaster.

(Having said all that - the neighbor & the contractor are both a-holes for not being responsible and then not apologizing afterwards.)

Big oops by me! Sorry, I misread the original comment as “lost our home” and missed “almost lost our home”.

That's spot on. We have some old fence post made from cedar that burned up and probably between a 1/3 - 1/2 and acre of the forest floor that's burned, but that will recover.

More than anything this has been stressful, and not just for us. All of our neighbors have been stressed by this as well. They all know it's just a matter of which way the wind is blowing and how hard.

The studies of medical mistakes included cases where someone actually died or was crippled for life. So it doesn't make sense to me to think this applies only to minor incidents.

My opinion: when someone sues for damages, they're looking not only to offset the harm they've suffered but also to ensure the same thing doesn't happen again. The first part depends on their circumstances—they may desperately need that money now. The second part may be satisfied entirely by a sincere apology, or the lack of an apology may underscore the importance of punitive damages.

If the party suffering harm is insured, it doesn’t really matter because the insurance company will do whatever it can to recover it’s loss.

One of the hard and fast rules of open fires, regardless of anything the law says, is that you make sure it is completely out before leaving. It would seem that this guy, or at the very least his contractor, is a straight up asshole.

I would have called the fire department the very first day they left it unattended. And speaking to the legal situation, I would be shocked if actual firefighters gave a pass to that level of irresponsibility.

It's not always up to you. Insurance companies suck from our perspective. To them it's $ and they will do whatever they can to save it by not paying out or get it by being litigious.

Here's a link to a post the Fire Dept put on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/CTCFirePD/posts/4787245711356321

First, F that guy and his contractor too. They're both a-holes for being so irresponsible with the fires.

That said - I do wonder if the future neighbor is even aware that something happened. If it's an empty lot (i.e., the future neighbor isn't living there now) and the neighbor doesn't visit regularly it might be possible that the person just doesn't know.

This is definitely an inauspicious start to your relationship with the future neighbor but hopefully the person will turn out better once they actually live there.

I'm glad no one was hurt. This time.

Willful risk of life, to say nothing of the property damage and the trespass of piling burning refuse on your property (over the property line)...

I would be furious.

I see a number of comments here that basically say, "No harm, no foul". I don't understand this attitude.

There are a number of regulations that can establish the right of a property owner to be liable for risk of harm to another. One instance I can think of is a tree or structure is at legitimate, immediate risk of falling over onto your property. Wildfire ordinances in rural areas -- out here, you need a permit for a burn like that, which could be revoked after an incident like this.

If you have cause to believe that you see an impaired driver, you don't have to wait for them to hit your car. Or run over your dog in the front yard.

This is nuts.

I'd probably be the worst person to have around after someone's house burned down. I have almost zero sentiment to material except photo albums but those are in the cloud (Yes, I would weep if all of iCloud + off-site storage were unrecoverably vaporized).

My concerns are strictly financial: What is the actual loss minus insurance? This is a $300-500k question; why is the article wasting words on sweaters, ziplock bags, spatulas, gift-cards, wooden crates(wtf)?

Honestly, my biggest irritation would be lost time. I famously loathe paperwork. So I'll get to my real question:

What can all of us do *today*, pre-burned house to deal with this situation?

* Buy a ton of fire extinguishers?

* Walkthrough video showing everything of high value and poking it to prove it works?

* Pre-file some paperwork or make a spreadsheet of high value items: cost + origin + date of purchase + current value?

* Locate nearest fire dept and drop off maps with nearest route to your house?

Anyone been through this can pitch in on best prep/prevention tips? The goal being, if my house burns down right this second, I want a big red button to push that kicks off all the Residence-Disaster-Recovery script and if it exits zero, I'm sitting in this same kind of chair at the same kind of desk saying "Thanks HN".

Despite my callous tone I do want to mention my heart goes out to those affected by the Colorado fire right now. Reach out to folks there if you know them:

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/colorado-fires-update-12-31...

> What can all of us do today, pre-burned house to deal with this situation?

2 is one, and 1 is none. Have a second abode nearby that is ready to go at a moment’s notice. Could be an empty home or apartment you own, or could be family and friends you can stay with.

With electronic backups of everything, I do not see anything else that would need to be protected. Although, I do have a small go box with important documents, especially government issued IDs and copies and cash that would come in handy, assuming I have the ability to extract it from the burning house.

From a material perspective access to cash will be the most important thing if you don't have friends or family who can help out. If your wallet with credit cards and id burned down, it will be hard to book a hotel for the night or buy essential things like food or clothing. I think that's something your can prepare already now. For example by storing a credit card in a second location with people you know or at your work place. Also in todays age where nobody remembers phone numbers anymore it might be good to try to remember the numbers of your most important contacts so you can at least contact your friends or family in case your phone is damaged.

Besides that, a digital copy of all your paperwork will help a lot down the road. Also you need to pre-declare all expensive items already before with the insurance. You can't just claim that your $50k watch collection got "lost" after the fact. It's also good to understand how the insurance will pay. Do they pay based on a % of the damages house? What happens if all of your belongings are full of smoke and not usable anymore because of it but the house is not really burned down?

> If your wallet with credit cards and id burned down

As a backup you can use your phone to make the payments, you just need to set it up first.

> Also in todays age where nobody remembers phone numbers anymore

~7 years ago my passenger called me from jail, because he'd memorized my phone number. I went to visit, got his gmail password, tried to call a few people for him. His bail was only $300, bailed him out myself... He promptly missed his next court date. Went to the bail revocation hearing, on my birthday, 7 years ago, and got most of that $300 back.

A few years later he got mickeyed up again, didn't even realize there was a warrant out for his arrest. I went to his hearing, judge was like, "you've really pulled yourself together... But I have to do something..." Think it was a few weeks in jail. I sent $ to buy snacks, he sent me a postcard (which I still have), which said how meaningful it was to have someone on the outside who cared enough about him to send $. He seems to be doing well now.

I consider it very important to have my important phone numbers memorized, on account of this story.

My blog post about the first half of this story: https://www.taxiwars.org/p/who-are-your-lifelines.html

You take your username seriously =)

This stuff comes up because losing a house is like dealing with the affairs of someone who does without a plan.

Think about everything you need ID for, including renting an apartment or hotel. If that’s lost, you’re screwed for a month, minimum assuming you have the proofs required to get a new drivers license or passport.

Little things that you take for granted are very difficult too. Sweaters sound frivolous, except the world doesn’t stop on your account, so the kids need to go to school and you still need to go to work.

The other thing is you need the presence of mind to know what a public adjuster is and hire one asap, so you don’t get lowballed by the insurance company. That may also mean that you need the cash or credit to survive in hostile conditions for 90-120 days, depending on your state.

See my top level post, but I’ve been through it. A couple of quick answers.

It’s hard to understand how overwhelming it is to suddenly loose every single material possession. And you’re spot on. Dealing with all the paperwork and agencies like FIMA and insurance companies. If you have the ability to help someone out in these areas it could be really helpful. Unfortunately it’s hard, and most of the “dealing” has to be done by the victims.

So, the point of the article is what can you do so help in the immediate where you have people you know suddenly have to replace literally everything. The spatulas and boxes may seem silly, but when you’re dealing with so many things at one time, even small stuff taken off your plate is helpful. For example, the first night I finally went to go to bed and hadn’t even thought to pick up a toothbrush and I was too overwhelmed to deal with it and actually broke down in tears!

Prevention tips? Well for the Oakland firestorm or the Colorado fires there’s not much to prevent. All I can say is do an inventory of your home and determine what you’d really miss if it were gone. Put those things close together so you can grab them in a minute. Or make sure you have copies. Cloud photo storage definitely makes a big difference. If you have old photos, make digital copies.

Pretty much agree - it would be traumatizing if my house burned down no doubt, but other than family and pets, I have no emotional connection to anything else in the house - its just stuff. If the house was on fire, I'd grab my laptop and backup disk - that would be about it.

I can't find it at the moment, but there was a Reddit post from a claims adjuster that said when filing a claim, be as specific as possible. So don't just put down "55-inch flatscreen television", it's a "Samsung ABC-55-OLED with stand" (be honest! insurance fraud is a crime). This is because the policy you have with your carrier says they have to replace your stuff with as close to original as possible. If you aren't specific enough, you get reimbursed for the cheapest 55" TV they can find.

So go through your house and make an inventory, writing down the actual model numbers and when you bought the item. A video record where you verbally give that same information can help too. Don't forget small items like the pots & pans, knives & forks, bath towels & linens.

Pay close attention to your policy's exclusions. High value items like jewelry, tools, firearms, art, and computers often have fairly low limits on them. Or maybe your teen-aged daughter has a closet full of designer clothes. Get additional specialty insurance on these - it's cheaper than you might think.

So far as saving your data - if it's not offsite it's toast [0]. Copy it onto an encrypted external USB drive and leave it at the office or at a friend or relative's house.

Have a storage tote with all your important "must-save" papers and some cash, so you can just grab it and go in case you have to evacuate. Print out your insurance policy and important phone numbers so that you don't need electronics and power to view them.

[0] I don't know why insurance companies don't offer 10gb of storage with someone like Backblaze for their customers. Seems like a natural thing to want, now that everyone has electronic files for everyday life.

That sounds like an enormous amount of labor unless you're starting from an empty house.

I've put it off so many years because it is an enormous amount of labor to document a constantly changing house inventory... Apparently all the little stuff like clothing adds up too so it needs to be thorough.

you get to decide where to stop. cataloguing everything worth >$500 might be a good place to start. that should be a relatively short list for most people. work your way down from there when you have time/energy.

> I don't know why insurance companies don't offer 10gb of storage with someone like Backblaze for their customers.

I agree. Refraining from the ‘I told you so’ with those you chided repeatedly to sort their shit out is really hard.

I’ve started just doing it for them, as dealing with the fallout is more painful than remaining tactfully silent and trying to restore broken, corrupted or deleted files.

dammmmm thank you. your comment just triggered a reminder to me to update my personal articles policy for changed computer hardware.

> I don't know why insurance companies don't offer 10gb of storage with someone like Backblaze for their customers.

Why on earth would an insurance company help customers better track their insured property, which means in the event of a claim they'd cost the company more?

My brother’s house burned to the ground in Colorado last night. His wife is about 7 months pregnant with their first child. I’ve been looking for more ways to help remotely, and this article had a few nice tidbits. It just seems so daunting, having to deal with what comes next. As the article mentions… the road to recovery is a marathon, and not a sprint.

I had my house burn down as a child and I think most of these are very good! I think #11 is a little circumstantial, but #13 (paperwork) should be twice in bold. The work of documenting your possessions is difficult and long. There is also tons of other paperwork to do. If you are up for forms it can be an enormous help.

Also - take 5 mins over the next few days to make a quick walk-though video of your house and back it up to the cloud. Nothing too fancy or detailed, but if you need to make an inventory for insurance (or any other reason) it will help enormously.

Same here. I was 9. For me, the worst part is all my favorite clothes and shoes burned up, so #11, but add shopping with the kids. It sucks to have to go to school in 2nd hand donated clothes. Other than that, it was fine. We stayed in a hotel for 6 weeks and I got all new toys.

> Our attorney had just explained that despite the 300 pages of paperwork we have submitted to our insurance company, I have another 100‐300 more to go in order to obtain the balance of the insurance policy monies we seek.

That seems excessively difficult. I’d probably give up before the first 100 pages.

> I’d probably give up before the first 100 pages.

That's part of the reason so many pages exist - to minimize payouts.

I lost my childhood home in the 1991 Oakland hills fire when I was in my early 20’s. I was the only one home at the time and it started on our block, so I had no time to get anything out of the house but the clothes on my back. So, I’ll emphasize number 12 as one of the most important points on the list.

As long as you are insured, the only things you really miss are the things that can’t be replaced. In our case it was slides and photos of when we were kids and of grandparents, great grandparents, etc. And mementos like concert t-shirts and such.

If you are a relative and have old photos, consider having them digitized and printed, and give an album to the ones who lost their home. My sister (in her own place by then) collected photos from relatives and made my mom and I each an album like this (not digital then so it was a bit more work!) and it’s literally the only photos I have of myself growing up that I can share with my kids. It’s weird in a way, my wife has boxes of childhood treasures she can show the kids, and I have just one small album, but I think it means that much more because it’s all I have.

If you are a friend, and shared experiences with the person who lost the home, and you have some keepsakes from those times together, that would be an amazing gift. I mentioned concert t-shirts, and I had a friend at work who had a connection with a well known musician who was able to score me a few old shirts. I still have them to this day and treasure them as one of the few reminders of those good times.

Also, about #5, bringing food. Please ask first! Food tends to be a popular way to help, but it can actually get overwhelming. We had so much in our freezer at one point we had to ask people to stop bringing it. Plus, you don’t necessarily know peoples tastes or what they are really craving for comfort. I think restaurant gift cards would be a better choice. Hardly any storage needed and it lets the family choose what they really want. Or, as mentioned in number 7, invite the affected people over for a meal! In the beginning they are probably in a hotel room until insurance helps with a more permanent place and it is nice to get out for a night.

Otherwise, this is a good, timely article with the fire in Colorado. My heart goes out to those families as I’ve been through it and it sucks.

There is a lot of goodwill out there and it works best with community and people we can either relate to or live close enough to in order to feel empathy.

What is remarkable is that doing something by yourself can feel impossible but with just a ffew people to help with time/money/expertise can turn the impossible into very doable!

If we all gave a little more to a few people who are struggling, the world would be very different but sadly some people would rather spend their money on a new iPhone or holiday than investing in someone who just needs a little boost.

Great article. Discovering gems like this that I normally wouldn't have seen is a big reason I visit HN.

Many of the recommendations in this article are also apropos to helping friends through difficult times, not just fire devastation. For example:

- Focus on quietly helping a friend feel seen and giving them an opportunity to verbalize a range of intense or confusing emotions.

- Just listen. Sit in the discomfort. Do not offer a bright side. Finding a silver lining is their work, not yours.

- Not being alone in this endeavor can soften the sting and free up time to tackle other parts of an endless to-do list.

- Ask how you can help even if you live far away. Support from those living afar is invaluable after a disaster because the natural, local network has been compromised.

- Give what will uplift, not weigh down.

Well this article hit home. A large chunk of my hometown burned to the ground last night.

My parents still live there and are okay but there is no doubt that friends and colleagues (I still work in the area) have lost their homes.

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