Arrington out at AOL (for real this time) | Hacker News Reader

Arrington out at AOL (for real this time)

finance.fortune.cnn.com

115 pointsasanwal80 comments

This is abhorrently unimportant drama. TC has been a trash rag from the start, and their flaming dramatic burnout is just as trash as everything else they've ever published. Go away already. This is publicity coup 101 shit. DIAF.

Oh get off the high horse and allow those of us who are enjoying this soap opera to indulge in some "abhorrently unimportant drama". You have no guilty pleasures?

I don't know about you but I don't post my guilty pleasures on Hacker News

Hacker News is my biggest guilty pleasure. I know what I should be doing ... but I like to feel involved in a community, so I post here. Picking up little bits of information is a bonus.

I don't get the vitriolic hate that TechCrunch gets on HN.

Sure, it can be trashy at times but it plays a very useful role in the Startp ecosystem. If it didn't exist then either Startups would get a lot less attention or some other publication would fill its place.

I think startups getting less attention is - on the balance - a bad thing. If a publication other than TC was publication-of-record then it is difficult to say if it would be better or worse.

Arrington did a media startup, cashed out and was going to run a VC fund. What's wrong with that?

>Arrington did a media startup, cashed out and was going to run a VC fund. What's wrong with that?

The details in between are what matter. I think most people are just put off by his constant need to interject himself into the stories.

Can you relate some examples that you found off putting?

I thought - for example - the whole CrunchPad thing was quite interesting. It was an interesting product, and the posts gave a lot of insight into how hardware businesses worked.

What did you make of the Last.fm story?

They published a story they got from a source, which turned out to be (mostly) wrong.

References:

http://www.techcrunch.com/2009/02/20/did-lastfm-just-hand-ov...

http://blog.last.fm/2009/02/23/techcrunch-are-full-of-shit

http://techcrunch.com/2009/05/22/deny-this-lastfm/

I don't see how that is Arrington's "need to interject himself into the stories"

I found their reporting of the story very off-putting. To be more precise, it was a hatchet job.

The CrunchPad, 'Angle-gate', all of his squabbling with Calancanis, fighting with Josh Topolsky. He is a diva and doesn't deserve the attention he gets.

> or some other publication would fill its place.

That's what is and has been desirable for a long time.

Why?

Seriously - there are a number of sites that have attempted this, but none have the influence of TechCrunch.

What is it exactly you think these sites should do differently?

Are you attributing Techcrunch's success to Arrington's style? In other words, are you saying it's necessary to interject drama, shaky ethics, idiocy, and questionable sources when reporting on the startup world to be successful? That doesn't seem very flattering to the startup world.

No, I'm disagreeing that he does those things (except perhaps for the questionable sources). I think he reports things that happen, and sometimes those things include drama.

Take AngleGate. Was that "injecting drama", or was it reporting an important story?

There are lots of things I don't like about TechCrunch (MG's Apple fanboism, Erick's tendency to see everything as a zero-sum game), but I think the hate isn't constructive and goes way too far.

As for shaky ethics, idiocy - I think that blogging isn't the same as print media, and the ethics are different to what print media's are. I'm not sure Arrington has them right yet, but I do think there should be a way for him to be a player and still report and offer analysis.

> What is it exactly you think these sites should do differently?

Filter the signal from the noise. TC was mostly just an arbitrary filter on the noise, with inscrutable criteria. For quite a stretch there you were only on TC if you were somehow related to Twitter. If anything it's improved on that aspect as Arrington has been less involved (but it's still too noisy for my taste).

I never had any problem with TC itself, it's easy enough for me to not read it, my problem was that people seemed to think that it was somehow more important than it really was. Pardon the tautology but it was/is only really ever important to people who thought it was important, like how some celebrities are famous for being famous.

Regarding the noise: yes, there are a lot of stories I aren't interested in. The problem is that the stories I'm interested in and the ones you are are probably different.

TechCrunch isn't important except as a source for documenting history of tech startups. I find that useful - I think it is good to show how attitudes to Google, Apple and Facebook change over time, and Techcrunch reflects that.

It is also important in closing the loop between companies and investors.

Beyond those things? I dunno - you are probably right. But that doesn't excuse the hate people seem to have.

TC was one of the few rags which seemed to care, at all, about the financials of tech companies - whether they could actually turn a profit.

(throwaway account for the natural reasons)

As an engineer at Aol, articles like this drive me crazy. I'm not 100% sold on the company's viability as it stands (MapQuest, AIM, and Moviefone don't really belong together), but I do want it to succeed. Bizzarre politicking played out publicly and the steady stream of internal emails stating "so-and-so got promoted and other-so-and-so is gone effective immediately" are getting disheartening.

I know the siren song of "it doesn't have to be like this" that startups sing (and, until relatively recently, all I worked at were startups). But (surprise!) Aol has a lot of great engineers. Once you get an excuse to work cross-property and can see that on a bigger scale, it begins to feel like "Hey, if we had the opportunity, we could build some (more) amazing stuff."

But we're constantly reminded that this is a HuffPo world now and business drama is par for the course. Sigh.

aol is not a software company.

it is not a tech company either, and hasn't been for a long time.

it was an ad-sales company until 2008 and now it is a media company.

@fleaflicker - You would be in a unique position to know!

"Touchdown Called Back: Fleaflicker Founder Buys Back Fantasy Sports Site From AOL"

"Over three years ago, we reported that AOL had acquired the New Jersey-based fantasy sports site Fleaflicker. It seemed like a touchdown for 26-year-old founder Ori Schwartz. Now it's looking more like a touchdown that was just called back."

"AOL has alerted members of the service today that Schwartz has bought back Fleaflicker. As of July 22, AOL will no longer be in control of the site which has dwindled under the control of our parent company. "While we love Fleaflicker (and our users love Fleaflicker), we wanted to find a home for the product where it can receive more love and attention," is the subtle middle finger in their FAQ."

http://techcrunch.com/2011/06/22/fleaflicker-the-aol-way/

You're right.

I'm probably just a naive engineer who got acquired in a purchase, but I wish it were better and I think it could be (in a magical universe where better decisions get made by a great many people).

Then realize you and your peers potential and pull a SterlingCooperDraperPrice.

Realize that the talent is you, not the company, gather everyone up and walk out with everything of value Aol has left. Then build something great.

Its what I'd do if I had access to a pool of great engineering talent.

What do I have to do to never hear of this man again? EVER.

I paraphrase the FBI's cordial letter of November 1964 to Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.: "Arrington, there is only one thing left for you to do. You know what it is. You have just 34 days in which to do [it]. … You are done. There is but one way out for you. You better take it before your filthy, abnormal fraudulent self is bared to the nation."

Umm, that was a bit too heavy handed.

I wish the man health, long life and prospority. And I wish to myself an internet without his drama.

I agree, in retrospect my comment was totally inappropriate.

Link to said letter?

I was curious enough about this that I looked into it...

There's an excerpt on his wikipedia page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther_King,_Jr. then search the text for "anonymous", and an image of it at http://www.oilempire.us/cointelpro.html

TIME magazine also mentioned the letter in 1975 at http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,913763,00.h...

I got curious as well, and your post helped. Just to point more clearly to the source, the cited reference comes from:

Title: "Judgment Days: Lyndon Baines Johnson, Martin Luther King, Jr., and the Laws that Changed America"

Author: Kotz, Nick

Publisher: Houghton Mifflin (2005). p. 247.

Access it here: http://books.google.com/?id=qo9r4_rnrasC&pg=PA247

[Looking at this URL again, is this an affiliate URL?]

[looks like a book id and page number to me]

Unfortunately for you this man's job for years has been to grab your attention whether you want to or not. And he's very good at his job.

Reminds me of the Theseus Paradox: if all component parts (Arrington + writers) of Techcrunch are replaced will it be Techcrunch?

And conversely, if all component parts setup shop at a new blog, is that Techcrunch (a map/territory debate perhaps?)

Oh how I would kill to be the lawyers perusing employment agreements, anti-poaching clauses, etc right now. And very much looking forward to Disrupt this week.

I guess it depends on how you interpret this graph: http://siteanalytics.compete.com/engadget.com/?metric=uv

(given their contentious relationship it is ironic that AOL killed both Jason Calacanis and Mike Arrington's greatest accomplishments in the exact same way)

Compete/Alexa rankings are worthless. It is known.

I agree on the specific numbers and on smaller sites. But on sites as large as engadget I think they can show fairly accurate trending

They really don't, even for large sites.

comparison:

- http://www.quantcast.com/macrumors.com#traffic (measured)

- http://siteanalytics.compete.com/macrumors.com/

This is really not true. They fudge numbers.

Edit: Apparently saying something factual gets downvotes at HN nowadays, so let me add some sources.

http://www.compete.com/resources/methodology/

http://aws.amazon.com/awis/faqs/#Where_does_Alexa_get_the_tr...

http://www.quora.com/Where-does-Compete-get-its-data-from

http://wackao.com/which-is-more-accurate-alexa-rank-or-compe...

http://www.bnet.com/blog/technology-business/comscore-money-...

First hand experience

speaking of arrington's contentious relationships and recent irony:

Bartz canned Tuesday. Arrington canned Wednesday.

If your lastname starts with a 'Z'; you might get canned tomorrow. Alternatively it could be people with 'R' or 'RR' lastnames .. Where is the series?!

Is HN still HN?

I don't think he was ever really going to become an "AOL Ventures" employee per this erroneous subhead here. There are really only 3 guys at AOLV and it seems his relationship with them was going to be as a LP.

The sourcing on this article is vague ("Fortune has learned that AOL executives have decided to terminate Arrington. It is unclear how this will officially occur"). As we have learned in the past week, even when AOL sources are on more solid footing the story seems to be quite slippery.

I feel bad for other TechCrunch employees who must be feeling very uncertain about their careers right now, in an already uncertain industry.

Tech news just became a whole lot more boring. I, for one, will miss his scoops, they were always the most exciting, scandalous ones.

Like he won't start a new site?

With a probable non-compete?

Which noncompetes have been repeatedly held unenforceable (acquisition NC's not included, but they usually have a short lifespan) in California?

He lives in Washington legally. Non-competes are generally enforceable even in California in the case of acquisitions like this. It's hard to argue that he wasn't given sufficient "consideration" which is usually the main issue for normal non-competes in employment contracts. IANAL though.

I doubt it could stop him starting a personal blog or tumblr. he might do it just to find out what happens

Typically they are only enforceable if you leave, or sign some sort of severance package, if it can be enforced at all.

It's very doubtful it can be enforced if you're fired.

I'm not sure if he's not allowed to write for TC anymore. I think he's just not the editor-in-chief.

Boring, really? What excites you about tech news is not their intrinsic technological value (as in "whoa, nice hack"), but soap-opera-married-reality-show-like drama announcements? (as in "X said Y about Z. OMG, OMG. What will Z say back? stay tuned")

Then, sir, I respectfully disagree.

I can see the headlines now "Crunchfund backed by AOL - will go without Micheal Arrington just like the Crunchpad backed by Micheal Arrington - will go without Micheal Arrington".

When does he appear on DWTS?

After reading the article above as well as TechCrunch the past few days, does anyone have another link or two detailing AOL's point of view in all of this? Arrington branded this as needing journalistic independence, and per the linked article, it seems to be bad execution of whatever it was AOL was trying to do. Drama and secret motivations aside, anyone give credibility to Arrington's call for journalistic independence of TC and what I'm perceiving of his belief that one can still be called a 'journalist' if you're transparent enough about what you're doing outside of the journalism job? To take a quote from one of the people he interviewed at TC Disrupt in NY, "transparency is the new objectivity" - any thoughts?

Does anyone know if his earnout has a "without cause" section written into it? Since Mike is a lawyer I presume it is but I don't know for sure. Seems likely he was let go without cause and I wonder if that means he'll vest immediately.

http://istechcrunchdeadyet.com/

"What happens if arrington leaves (as many founders do)

"Site is done. He leaves, and his sources will follow him and he will setup shop elsewhere."

Site will likely coast at current levels for awhile.

Ah, I should know with a domain like that to expect more than trollish drivel when describing sites that Abed has probably never even bothered to try to be a part of. Oh well.

Is there anything to stop Arrington from creating another news blog? He's losing properties like CrunchBase and the conferences, but why not take a few of the TC employees and keep writing news?

Yes, a noncompete. It will likely be something they leverage in order to do his earnout.

Non-competes are flimsy in California, but a bit more on the "maybe" in Washington. It all depends on which employment law his agreement (and the employment agreements of the other writers, if they have them) are under.

Anti-poaching is typically a term of the severance and is enforceable typically.

EDIT: Corrected below, thanks! Non-competes do apply in acquisitions.

Non-competes tied to acquisition earnouts are an entirely different beast than employment non-competes. They very much apply in California.

Non-competes for acquisitions in California are enforceable. It's one of the few exceptions where it can actually be enforced, but they usually expire after a year.

IANAL but my understanding is that an acquisition (eg AOL buying TC) is one scenario where a non-compete holds up, even in CA.

Even outside tech--- there was a Greek restaurant in Santa Cruz whose owner sold it, and then waited exactly N years (I forget what N equals) before opening a new restaurant, due to the noncompete.

I think a lot of readers here fail to understand that the worry isn't whether TC can live w/out Michael Arrington, but rather what kind of culture will be instilled onto TC when Arianna Huffington has a direct say in what is being said and done.

Sure, TC Disrupt can go without Arrington, but will you still like it when it starts resembling more of New York fashion show?

On a very basic level, this is the same reason why investors used to dump Apple stock every time Steve took a yet another leave of absence.

This really could be the end of TechCrunch as we know it. It's too bad. HN and TC are the two sites I frequent the most often. Arrington leaving will probably lead to Siegler and maybe Kincaid leaving, and then TC is as boring as any other site out there.

does the end of the drama mean that i can stop paying attention to TC again soon? they never seemed to have too much of a presence on HN or reddit, but since all the Arrington drama has come up there seems to be a lot more of their articles being shared, and i don't mean just the drama-related stuff. people seem to be using TC as a source for all sorts of stuff that i would normally see linked to on founder's blogs instead.

I'm guessing this drama wouldn't have occurred if happened to anyone other than Arrington.

Let's just say that TechCrunch Disrupt next week will be fun to attend :-)

well, here is a new TC story

http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2973357

basically a TC guy made a honest joke about HP and TC censored itself.

This whole things sounds like one big publicity stunt.

I'm glad I'm not the only skeptic. Something about this whole thing feels a little too contrived and over the top to me.

How seriously does anyone take Techcrunch as a news source? Will this help?

Getting fired on purpose is a perfect way for him to go out. He gets his money and gets to go work on something else, or simply not work. Meanwhile, AOL gets stuck holding the bag and looking like the bad guy. I had an old boss who did something similar.

Who cares? Does anyone think that TC OR Arrington will become any less influential or important? If anything this is GREAT for Arrington. Lots of press about his new venture, lots of press about his legacy TC, and now he can act in an independent journalistic capacity (even with respect to his investment company) for his own purposes.

I just don't get why there are two stories every day about this on HN. (Nothing like TC drama to bring out the silent downvotes)

His new venture has $8M of AOL funding promised to it, so that could be awkward to say the least. The drama ain't over yet.

Nah, it's a win-win. I mean I'm sure there will be follow-on drama because that's part of the win.

Is TechCrunch still going to give priority scoops to YCombinator startups? Is YC's stock going to rise or plummet because of this? Will Arrington still have Aol investing in his new fund? Will Arrington be eager to invest in YC companies?

Reply on news.ycombinator.com