Yes, Other Countries Do Housing Better, Case 2: Germany
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Germany is currently trying to combat against conglomerates coming in and buying out buildings to own outright and rent out, setting their own price for the rent. This kind of renting is becoming more and more widespread which is also contributing to the ever rising prices for rental housing.
You can’t pump billions in subsidies into the market, lower interest rates to the floor to prevent that money from going around capital markets and not expect some kind of dysfunctional price rise in the real estate market. Money finds its way to where it provides the best return, and right now that is real estate in most markets. Trying to fight this tide at the real estate end is somewhat futile. The governments need to give the money a better place to go.
Sounds like we're returning to good ol Feudalism.
In general, at least around big cities(100 km radius from München, for example), the "german" population does not afford a house. A new house is around 450000 euros and the land under it is also between 200 - 500 Euros per square meter. For a lot of people, especially migrants, this is undoable. If course if you go in forgotten places with no industry, no public transport and a lot of neo nazis you can find affordable housing.
That only 40% of Germans have any interest in buying doesn't mean that 60% of Germans have no clue. It means that they have a system where buying isn't nearly mandatory. Rents are often only barely higher than the cost of capital for buying plus maintenance.
Both have grown, particularly in Berlin and some other places. (I live in Munich, which has had very high prices by German standards for a long time.) But that growth doesn't mean that the cost of renting is much higher than the cost of a bank loan plus maintenance etc. AFAICT, both have grown together.
Unless you mean that as a hyperbole, I doubt it very much. Prices for flats, I believe, range from 400.000EUR up, and investing that much into renovations would bring you a marble, teak and gold leaf finishing house.
I can only second what others in the comments here have already pointed out: current housing and housing prices feel fundamentally broken and completely disconnected from wages and realistic mortgages.
Really everyone is complaining. It is not affordable. So even persons with high income like doctors or engineers are struggeling. So often you just hear, the only chance is to inherit it...
is renting not an option? Why is only purchasing counted?
So with the current high housing asset prices and low rental prices, purchasing a house doesn't make financial sense.
the mortgage is not 100% comparable to the rent, since not 100% of the mortgage is unrecoverable cost, unlike rent.
Some percentage of the mortgage payment is the principle payment. If you subtract this principle payment, and add in the cost of capital for the mortgage (which is the opportunity cost of the initial deposit), you can then compare the cost of mortgage with rent.
In most cases, rent should be cheaper (but of course, not always).
A nice rule of thumb is to have a 5% rule - if you can rent annually for less than 5% of the cost of the property, you'd be ahead financially.
In many cities where buy prices are high the renter will end up with a higher net worth in the end.
The main thing that makes renting a worse deal in many jurisdictions are the tax subsidies towards home ownership and taxation of rentals, otherwise in a working market it's a little rentiers profit and a lot of risk pricing / speculation.
Generally renting may take a smaller slice of your cash flow and allow you to invest the difference which will decide which will affect which scenario will come out $$ wise ahead in the endgame.
Look at London or Barcelona for example. Landlords in these cities aren’t hoping to come anywhere near covering their mortgages with rent payments, they are hoping to profit from real estate appreciation.
This is really basic economics, it’s incredible to see people railing against this on HN. Even the home-ownership obsessed US is full of cities where it’s a vastly better financial decision to rent instead of buying.
Most landlords here are betting on property values continuing to grow, they’ll never turn a profit on rents.
I'd note that Doctors and Engineers don't really get high salaries compared to the US though. Europe is all about landlordism and inheritance.
The main problem in my opinion regarding Germany is that it becomes really hard to accumulate wealth, you have high taxes, real estate prices are high and the consumer prices are rising. So inheritance plays a really big role.
That's by design, isn't it? You're not really supposed to build up private wealth, you're supposed to fund social security systems and rely on them when in trouble.
I remember some high-ranking politician (I believe SPD, but my memory is weak) said in regards to Germany's low personal wealth that in Germany your wealth is having a social system you can rely on (and thus you don't need to have personal wealth).
No developed country serves working people. And it isn’t made to serve the aristocracy, either. Businesses and business interests rule over all. That much the US and the apparent monolith of Europe has in common, at least.
The only difference is that professionals—those with “careers”—are probably paid less in Europe in general compared to their peers in the US. Which is probably the reason why there is so much seething on HN about how Europe is oppressing people—Europe (or at least Western/Northern Europe) is relatively egalitarian overall, but tech nerds aren’t paid five times as much as their plumber, which is a real injustice.
Well, that's something new for me. On the opposite, I see many people complain about (1) medical care costs in the USA, and how the system is designed in a wrong way - in Europe, you can either pay (much less than in the USA) or get healthcare for free, (2) no guaranteed PTO - in Europe, you have guaranteed 26 days + public holidays, (3) extremely high cost of higher education (in most of Europe is free/quite cheap), (4) related to that, student debt getting out of control (this is showing up often on HN), (5) inhuman approach to parental leave - you often need to go back to your factory a few weeks after giving birth to your baby! FB boasts of 4 months - how generous of them! In many European countries you get a year. Moreover, there are laws giving similar rights to fathers.
Weeks ? Not in America!
>A day after giving birth, I was asked back to work. America needs paid family leave
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/dec/27/americ...
I posted that article the other day, didn't get as much traction as the DoorDash delivery story.
You very much do have a nightmare for poor people in America, you can do everything right and stub your toe, and end up $30,000 in medical debt overnight. People die all the time just because they can't afford healthcare. It can actually be cheaper, assuming you can manage getting on a plane and all that to fly to London, and treat your stub toe there versus treating it here. It's absolutely ridiculous what we put working people through in America.
Mental health care is also extremely expensive, for example, your concerned about your spending habits. Your looking to therapy, but then you realize a therapist will cost upwards of $1,600 a month.
Or maybe you lose your job and can no longer afford to pay $3,000 a month for various psychiatric medicines. It's as if we're all living in a demented Dickinson's novel, you get fired on Monday, your daughter loses her health insurance Tuesday, and your daughter may die since she ends up skipping essential medical care.
Of course we have half-assed stop gaps, for example, if after losing your job you have a spare $1,500 a month you can keep your employee health insurance. Cobra as it's called is everything wrong with America.
Even with a job, it's cheaper for me to pay out of pocket for health care. I have this luxury since I know Pythons, but when I was younger I just didn't go to the doctor. This caused all types of strange issues which I'm still working on.
It's a function of how incredibly high wealth disparity is. Go to the richest part of town in any big city sometime in the evening. >70% (often more than 90%) of the lights are off, because nobody is home in these multimillion $ homes, because they are 2nd, 3rd or 4th home. So the people who can afford houses that >90% of the people can never afford, can buy many of these without blinking an eye.
The expected market price of a home in terms of rent should be “what you can afford”, and with that argument the expected purchase price would be the number that makes the capital cost of a loan the same as the rent (minus some maintenance and other factors).
If interest rates are tiny then the expected mortgage for a house will be huge. Especially if there are no regulations requiring the length of mortgages.
How is it better than anything?
https://www.immobilienscout24.de/ratgeber/immobiliensuche-ti...
(I believe they report the number for the district with the highest average.)
München: 77
Stuttgart: 75
Köln: 53
Not a 100 person, but at least in Frankfurt it is quite common to show up to a rental apartment viewing where a lot of other people are also visiting
The only affordable houses are run down, old ones, half an hour away from public transportation -- barely anybody wants to live there, because of high rate of right wings (eastern Germany), or lack of infrastructure (e.g. medical care). These broken minor towns and cities might decrease the average prices -- failure of the averages!
Regarding prices, from my POV the article is made-up nonsense.
House prices in attractive areas (in and around Tokyo) have increased drastically over the last few years.
Meanwhile, houses in the countryside are on the market for almost (and often literally) nothing.
I guess the question is what the data is actually measuring. would still expect the graphs to show an increase if they measure the price of actually sold property.
Just checked OECD data and to me it looks like prices are rising in similar ways in Germany and the US since 2015. Japan does in fact seem less steep but it's still rising, not flat as the graphs on TFA would suggest: https://data.oecd.org/chart/6ztU
Older homes were one floor with single pane windows and basically single plane plywood walls. New ones have double paned windows, 2-3 floors, and some degree of insulation in the walls.
I’m not sure if that’s the sole factor driving price increases, but I imagine it’s one thing. Houses are generally treated as something to rebuild every 20-40 years here. But I could see newer homes being a buy once, keep your whole life deal.
Also look at the conference series Working Class Districts and Urban Policies https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https:/...
Is the goal stable prices over long period of time? And are we comparing house prices of individual US cities to entire countries (ie. Germany)?
I bet that prices in large German cities are much less stable than in smaller ones.
[0] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_ow...
The goal is affordable housing. With good housing stock, that means people can own OR rent in an affordable manner, depending on what they need.
What? no. Absolutely not. The houses or flats you get for 1.2mm will be more like 3-4k a month if you're renting.
[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_home_owne...
But you're right that any article describing UK housing as "affordable" needs suspicion. Should also compare by size; the one advantage the US does have is much larger houses, on average.
First of all, compared to the rest of Europe houses are small - my parents have a house that's slightly larger than the average, it has 3 bedrooms in 90m2 including the garage. The housing stock - even new houses - are all pretty inefficient and need a lot of energy to heat. The rest of Europe has been pushing energy efficiency standards (in terms of heating demand), especially Scandanavia and the Baltic's, while the UK has pretty much stood still and builds houses today the same as they did 30 years ago.
For this you are going to be paying a lot. Two people on average salaries would not be able to get a mortgage for my parents' house, and it's not anywhere near London or other big cities. And that's assuming you could earn an average salary - in their area that would be a bit of a push as most of the jobs are in the service and tourism industry.
If rent is dirt cheap, and tenant protections are large, most people prefer to pay little rent, and invest their money in stocks or some other asset, than put all of their money into a single asset with very questionable performance and high risk (a house).
You can have financial independent, fully passive income from stocks, and just pay a little bit of rent with it. Or you could have a house, be tied to a 60 year credit plan, and have to work until you are 70 years old.
Don't be disingenuous, the fact that home ownership is high indicates that the housing is cheap, and cheap housing dosen't require a "60 year" credit plan to obtain. Indeed, I would wager it is the countries with lower home ownership rates that require a large mortage and high debt to pay off.
Most people are all in on housing and can't afford to diversify after that, thus, the government cannot let the market crash without wiping out the wealth of the majority of its citizens
> The US has the diversity similar but not the how that diversity is defined as with india or brazil.
I don’t even know what this sentence is supposed to say but it’s probably not anything profound.
> it’s probably not anything profound.
Could say the same, just being pompous. We're not comparing third generation italians with all of india here, we are comparing them the whole of US where italians are one piece with india. If you want 1-to-1 check out immigrant communities in any major city and suburb. I've worked in a team of maybe 20 where at least 7 nationalities and 4-5 native langauges were represented. Unless of course you don't consider naturalized americans lr their children as real americans? I've met Chinese from different parts of china, mexicans from different parts if mexico, indians from different states speaking urdu, punjabi,etc... middle easter people with very different arabic dialects and somehow you think India or Brazil is more diverse? You don't have to have a long established native presence for your culture to count. Heck, ever heard of internet or hacker culture? It's real!
Like the article says, Austria is another country where housing is really well run.