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Comment by sandworm101 | Hacker News Reader

>> For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in

That is exactly what apple doesn't want you to do. They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices. And most users will be OK with this. They will probably appreciated not having to buy a local SIM cars. They will enjoy how easily their virtual SIM connected to the local ISP and hooked them into a the prearranged roaming deal for apple devices. They won't question the price because they will have no input into a negotiation that happened years before they arrived in the country. All that is left for them is to blindly pay the bills.

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To me, there is nothing to indicate this is a power grab by Apple.

Google supports eSIM. Google can sell you cell service for your iPhone from the couch.

If any phone manufacturer is trying to compete with the carriers, it would look a lot like Google, which made a global MVNO.

Yes, there is usually a business motive behind every business decision. The GSMA makes it sound like the carriers want it, as well as the phone manufacturers:

“Simpler device setup without the need to insert or replace a SIM card;

Devices that can operate independently of a tethered smartphone, with their own subscriptions;

A range of new, enhanced mobile-connected devices.”

Emphasis on “with their own subscriptions”

https://www.gsma.com/esim/about/

> [...] Google, which made a global MVNO.

> Google Fi is a service for US residents only, as of late 2019. [1]

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Fi

While iPhones are supported on Google Fi they don't support 5G. Other Google Fi phones support 5G without problems. But 5G on iPhones has been "coming" for years. I have no idea what's taking so long.

> But 5G on iPhones has been "coming" for years

iPhone 12 series was the first to support 5G - launched in Oct 2020. That’s barely over a year ago?

I meant this (from the same article):

> When outside the United States, cellular phone calls cost $0.20 per minute, data costs the same $10 per gigabyte (i.e. there are no extra data charges outside of the US), and texting is free

By that measure every M(V)NO with roaming agreements is 'global', albeit Google is one with particularly good international rates.

Sorry, $10 per gigabyte? That's ludicrously expensive.

In my international travel, where I used to (a) carry an unlocked phone, then (b) used to use the second (physical) SIM slot once that became available, I would buy SIMs from local carrier shops or kiosks (whichever costs less), and found that $10/GB is really not ludicrously expensive in first world markets.

It's difficult to get SIMs that work in local places around the world that do everything you need to do and cost much less than that. Plus the ones you buy locally have different numbers.

Eventually I switched this around, I put my US carrier in my SIM slot, and I use eSIM on the phone to get decent digital plans "in market". Some are digital via apps, some are QR codes from shops or kiosks.

eSIM seems to have better or at least competitive pricing for the last 4 years or so.

// Note I'm generally using a lot of data, so cost matters. The only thing I've found much cheaper is to get a local carrier who also offers free unlimited WiFi from local APs. Anywhere this works, that naturally beats any cell-only plan. You usually won't find this except by searching local language sites or going into local carrier stores and asking.

I imported my Pixel 5 to Switzerland which is technically not supported. Had to switch my esim to a physician because the esim didn't want to activate and also didn't get regonized by the phone.

So much about support and independence.

> Had to switch my esim to a physician

I assume that’s an autocorrect? I like it.

Yes. I meant physical sim.

Another thing that I just remembered is that my ISP only allowed me 10 activations on the e-sim before having to buy a new one for 50 bucks.

That's more to do with the carrier than the eSIM standard or phone, though. My iPhone supports eSIM but my carrier (and the others, apparently) refuses to provision eSIMs for anything that isn't a smartwatch.

The eSIM worked just fine on the iPhone before.

Like I said -- more to do with carrier restrictions. Your carrier doesn't have Pixel 5 on the "allowed devices" whitelist, so when it sends a registration request via that eSIM the network rejects it. (Your carrier knows which phone model is attempting to activate a SIM, even a physical one, and can reject it for whatever reason. It's just less common)

My Pixel 2 supported WiFi Calling but my carrier didn't acknowledge it as "supported" and the carrier's servers refused to send it a settings file.

iPhone is known bad to use non-authorized carrier because some features like tethering needs special carrier bundle that can't be installed by user. eSIM-only iPhone gives power to Apple to extend restrictions. I suspect that they want to sign with carriers to encourage careers to sell iPhone.

I don't understand. I can get an eSIM from my telecom provider and scan it with a QR Code to activate it in Android. I've done this with Telenor in Europe and Zain in the Middle East. It works great. I can even switch between them on the fly!

How does the phone manufacturer have anything to do with it? My only wish is to support multiple eSIMs, as now I only have one physical SIM slot and one eSIM.

They added support for that (atleast with dual eSIMs) in iPhone 13s.

https://support.apple.com/en-in/HT209044

You can get one today. Tomorrow, after a "security update", apple could just decide that it doesnt like certain ISPs and reject thier virtual sims. Rejecting hardware sims is much more difficult and is likely a violation in many jurisdictions.

Why wouldn't rejecting eSIMs be a violation then?

They pretty much used to do that physical SIMs. For the longest time Apple wouldn’t accept network profiles many MVNO in the U.K. which mean the phone would completely ignore the config on SIM and stuff like internet wouldn’t work.

You could still get everything working by manually configuring the phone, and carriers like GiffGaff had support articles explaining how, but it was a total pain in the arse and stuff would occasionally break in subtle ways.

Additionally the eSIM is separate physical chip within the phone attached to baseband radio. Once configured with a profile, the host OS has as much access as it does to a normal SIM, I.e. not much. The entire standard is kinda a hack, which basically boils down to “what if we embedded a normal SIM card chip in the phone, and let the phone flash a new carrier profile every now and then?”. Remember these SIMs are fully fledged computers, like their normal removable counterparts, that can ignore host OS commands, and issue instructions directly to the baseband processor without the host OS knowledge.

Can you find these regulations that apply specifically to physical SIM cards? No? Weird.

And then to switch the eSIM to your other phone/hotspot is super easy right?

Apples eSIM is not the same as that open eSIM standard. eSIMs that work with iPhones have to be supplied via a direct agreement with Apple as far as I understand.

What are you basing that assertion on? All the eSIMs I’ve ever used have come direct from the carrier, and in some cases those carriers have very small presence and aren’t know for being at the front of Apple queue for services.

Then there’s the dozens of companies in the App Store like https://www.dentwireless.com/ who all provide eSIMs for international travel. I find it hard to believe they all have agreements with Apple, it normally costs far to much to deal with Apple for bottom dollar companies to make any money.

There are various threads on their developer forums alluding to it, eg. https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/109874 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/110829 https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/109797

Of the threads you’ve listed, one deals with app entitlements to call the addPlan API, which is nice to have so a carrier app can directly provision an eSIM, but not needed for eSIM provisioning via QR code. For the other two threads, it’s the same person both times making the assertion Apple’s eSIM is proprietary, with all comments being 3 years olds and discussing a beta iOS version.

So would take all of those sources with a large pinch of salt. If Apples eSIMs we’re proprietary, I would expect to be easy to find articles discussing the fact, given they’ve been around for a few years now.

I'm in the eSIM business and the same QR code you can scan on an iPhone will work on a Pixel, Samsung and a few other eSIM supporting devices. You might be thinking of the Apple SIM, where Apple to work directly with those carriers.

This has not been my experience in the US. The eSIM QR code appears to be one time use with two major carriers I've used (AT&T/T-Mobile). I could not simply scan the previous QR code when I got a new phone I had to go into the store and request another.

A physical SIM in contrast always works. I was already questioning whether I'd ever need to upgrade from the 12 Pro but this type of needless regression makes it an easy decision.

> They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users.

SIMs come from the phone company. How could it be otherwise as that's where the phone number comes from, and that's how the local physical network determines whether you're allowed to connect or not:

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card

Unless Apple is planning to become a MVNO (or building out their own cell towers), they cannot provide any information for network connectivity.

From your own link:

> A virtual SIM is a mobile phone number provided by a mobile network operator that does not require a SIM card to connect phone calls to a user's mobile phone.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Other_variants

This isn't about Apple becoming an MVNO, this is about Apple somehow controlling the process of configuring your phone because you no longer have the option to choose a SIM card and insert it yourself.

This is FUD. It’s about streamlining configuration of plans and activation and getting rid of physical widget

https://www.t-mobile.com/support/tutorials/topic/esim/activa...

This is marketing. It's about putting Apple in the middle of plans and activation, and getting rid of a physical standard.

Guess what. Apple can dent physical sims too though

Why do you think you a physical sim for different providers. Because they only work with that provider. Apple can turn the tap off on a class of Sims as it is

They can emulate the SIM card which gets provisioned on-the-fly with no user input according to the position of the device and whatever contract apple has for that area.

That's definitely going to be a step up in user comfort... The average apple user will definitely love it

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM

From rumors I heard over a year ago, Apple are planning on satellite implementations of some sort to get off current cell tower configurations and SIM vulnerabilities. I don't have a current link to those rumors, but I'm sure you can find them. When I first saw this MacRumors article come through I assumed this is why they're removing SIM. We'll see, it's just rumors to me until it's brought to fruition anyway.

> If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices

eSIMs aren’t some apple run “program” you have to take part in.

Yes they are: https://developer.apple.com/forums/thread/109874

No, they are not. That 3 year old link did not come true. Today a eSIM QR code can be scanned by an iPhone, Pixel, Samsung or other esim supporting device. (source: I sell eSIMs)

I doubt this. Apple could charge an activation fee with a normal SIM already and yet they don’t. And any money gained from this would be insignificant to their other revenue streams. People don’t change SIMs that often

> They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users.

[ citation needed ]

eSIM is already a standard and as far as I can tell, Apple gets no kickbacks/etc for users using it. I can go to att.com right now and swap to an eSIM if I were so inclined, for free.

> If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices

I wonder if Apple won't just bulk-buy bandwidth and take care of the customer experience.

Imagine your phone just... working globally.

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