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Comment by ckdarby | Hacker News Reader

Yet you have your phone, laptop, your family + family members also have laptop & phone.

You're already being tracked and listened to all the time. You're only as strong as the weakest device on you and or in your phone at any point.

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I feel like this argument is not productive for improving privacy because it suggests we shouldn't try. I think improving privacy is incremental and these improvements can make a difference, however small. It's never going to be complete, but neither are security measures.

The end point of the argument is that there is no such thing as individual privacy. Privacy is defined by the ability to distinguish people, even if it’s just process of elimination (you know that all but one of the houses on the block has a smart oven, and you can figure out that somebody in the block turned an oven on based on the minute changes in natural gas pressure, therefore you can spy on that last person almost as effectively as if they had installed a smart oven themselves).

Either everybody is private, or nobody is. There is no such thing as “f u, got mine” here. Privacy is inherently a collective problem, so it must be solved by political means, not by individual choices.

While I do agree that fundamentally the issue needs to be tackled on a political level, I don't agree that individual changes don't impact that individual.

I don't think it's possible (for most) to have complete privacy, but I don't think any (or very few) even want that, they just want more control over it. They don't want people they don't even know, to know more about them than people they do know.

Before the changes are (if they ever are) made from a political level, it's possible to take steps to have more control over what information is collected.

I wholeheartedly agree, but that doesn't mean I want to add the additional attack surface/threat model of having an always on Alexa or Google home device, even before I consider the additional privacy and data sharing implications.

> You're already being tracked and listened to all the time

No, I'm not, because my phone is as basic (read: lacking in capabilities) and locked down as I can make it, my computers run Linux and don't have any intrusive software installed. So no, I'm not anywhere near as exposed to tracking as people who have these smart home devices in their homes.

Even your basic phone results in your location being tracked since this is done through the cell towers. Whether any phone actively eavesdrops or “listens” is still an unconfirmed conspiracy, but in terms of basic phone calls and text messages, calls are all unencrypted and can be tapped and text messages are recorded. Even if calls aren’t recorded by default (they may be by nsa), there’s a record of the metadata of every phone call you’ve ever made or received.

My 1997 surmise that phone companies were capable of using digital tech to analyze phone conversations was wholly conspiracy theory until it was proven true.

If the capability is there, then so is the gravity to use it.

Yes, you might want to believe that is the case but having worked at an insanely popular site that does advertisement I can tell you that you are tracked.

Then having worked in Fintech space I can tell you you're tracked even more than you could imagine.

Do you take public transit? Tracked. Does your car offer OnStar? Can be tracked.

Do you do zoom meetings? Compromised. But! You're going to tell me you only use the web version and you disable tons of things in some ultra secure browser. That is cute, what about your coworker who has some sketch software that captures audio and the screen?

There was a company indirectly worked with that looked to have access to millions of voice signatures to identities. Let's say you talked near any non-secure device and now it knew where you were based off the non-secure device location.

Welcome to the reality, Snowden's reveal was only the tip of the iceberg.

Some of us actively take steps to avoid being tracked all of the time. People like you are the reason people like me have to try so hard. I’m so sick of this argument.

Even if the horse is gone, there's no need to lift the barn door off its hinges.

how do you tracked a turned off phone

Quite easily. iPhones running iOS 15 can be tracked even if powered off.

not truly powered off then

slightly rhetorical question - how do I tell when my phone is off?

depends on the phone

You ping it. Recently the Canadian government did this to track everyone during covid.

If you can't take out your battery you need to cover that phone.

Faraday bags are great.

> You ping it.

If the phone is truly turned off, the radio isn't listening, so pinging the phone does nothing.

> Recently the Canadian government did this to track everyone during covid.

This seems like an extraordinary claim, do you have any articles about this?

Most modern phones can't be turned off for real.

(Which is why my phone isn't modern. I can even easily remove the battery!)

Bluetooth LE. Newer Iphones can be tracked in the same manner as airtags, but without the warning.

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