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Same thing at drive up ATMs. it feels like people are applying for a mortgage or opening retirement accounts when I'm behind them waiting. And... I know it's an exaggeration, but often I will time the person or people in front of me. Someone taking up to 1 minute - I don't generally mind (unless theres 3 people ahead of me). However, I've often sat behind someone who takes 3-4 minutes, and I can not figure out what the hell they're doing.

That said, I think I've only used an ATM 3x in the past year, so this may mostly be a thing of the past now.

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I have been, in the past, that annoying person taking up lots of time at the ATM. Here's what I was doing: Depositing lots of checks (up to a dozen at once), with an ATM that in theory supported depositing a whole stack at once but in practice spat them back most of the time if you put in more than one. Oh, and you have to key in the value of each check, and navigate menu options after each individual check deposit.

I was very damn efficient considering how much I was doing, but it still took a decent amount of time.

As a non-American, the very idea of having to drive somewhere to physically deposit pieces of paper to transfer money around sounds absurd to the point of hilarity.

You don't have to do that. Most banks have mobile deposit, and cheques are generally only used for larger sums of money.

Last time I used a check was about 15 years ago. And that was after moving to the UK in 2000 and having roughly the reaction above to even being given a checkbook. I'd never had a checking account before as that had stopped being a thing most people had back in the 1980s in Norway. When I got my first "adult" bank account in the 90s my bank didn't offer it even as an option to personal customers any more.

Just to give you an idea how quaint it seems to many of us to hear about checks.

Why would you use a piece of paper for any sum of money?

In Poland, I've seen a real-life check only once in my whole adult life (past ~20 years). Any amount, literally from $1 to $10M+ is being sent by a wire transfer, and wire transfers cost $0-$0.25 flat fee, arriving within the same working day, or instant.

This is how it has worked for the past 20 years, and the more recent innovation is having a similar system working all across Europe, and instant transfers within the same country.

Depending on a bank's security policy, the only difference between amounts is that some banks won't allow you to send wires above a certain amount from mobile, and with some banks you have to appear in person for wires above say $50k.

> Why would you use a piece of paper for any sum of money?

In the US, sending money to another person's account, especially as an individual, is a difficult process, often requiring giving long account and routing numbers that many of us were told not to give out. It also takes several days to process, and sometimes has fees of $25-30. Also some banks have limitations allowing you to do transfers only to accounts where the name matches.

While many major banks have an online transfer system (eg, Zelle), this is far from being universally supported (my bank is not a member) and many people don't have it setup. Also the transfer limits might be low.

Other options like Venmo or Cash require both sides of the transaction to have an account. They also don't work well outside of friend-to-friend interactions.

My understanding is the US is due to replace the current clearing house system with one up to modern standards, but we'll see how that goes.

> often requiring giving long account and routing numbers that many of us were told not to give out. It also takes several days to process, and sometimes has fees of $25-30

I get there probably isn't a single answer to this, BUT WHY? The US is a mature, skilled economy with a competitive B2C market, why does it still lag behind even comparable countries in terms of consumer financial infrastructure?

I imagine it is very profitable for the existing players.

> with a competitive B2C market

This is the disconnect. There are only a couple of national banks, and they are all crappy in their own important ways. This was largely the same in the UK until Mon{z,d}o came along and banks had to treat user experience as a source of competitive advantage seemingly overnight.

The Faster Payments Service, which has allowed transfers between accounts of any UK bank which usually happen within minutes has existed since 2008. And it is free to use for non-business account holders throughout the entire market.

Paym, which allows transfers using mobile numbers is available with most high-street banks, but notably, not the fintech banks has been available since 2014. So arguably the fintech banks are behind the curve here, likely to try and drive some sort of network effect to increase friction of transferring money to customers of other banks.

Were the existing banks processes, apps & websites janky before the likes of Monzo came about? Sure, to varying extents. But the actual method of making transfers between accounts hasn't been influenced at all by the new banks, they're all using the existing structures that everybody was using before.

> BUT WHY?

In US even the idea what there are could be some nation-wide (ie federal) registry of it's own citizen could get you pitch-forked. US still doesn't have a national-wide internal ID, and for the thing what essentially replaced it in function - driver's ID, every state has it's own format and idea what should be in it. It is not uncommon to hear what for something what requires ID (like buying alcohol or entering a nightclub) the people out of state would be barred from doing so because the clerk doesn't recognize the driver's ID of some other state and thinks it is a fraudulent one.

Most European countries have it easy, compared to the US, having a single law across the country and one citizens registry, or at least something much closer to it than the US.

Add to this a whole "embarrassed millionaire" mentality and a total unwillingness even to acknowledge the need for a change.

For the last one see any thread on Reddit where sane^W any non-American asks why US shops can't write the final price on the tag already.

I think this thread shows most American people don't understand European bank transfers.

I give you my account number. No risk to me. You can't take money from my account. You can only put money into that account.

No statewide ID or anything like that is needed by anyone for this system to work.

Checques work the opposite. I give you permission to take money from my account with a piece of paper. Very risky!

> No statewide ID

"Sure but now everyone can track me down with my account ID! [Which is of course in the number of The Devil!11]" - the guy who has SSN.

I wasn't clear in my previous post, but statewide ID isn't needed for the consumers, of course, but behind the curtains this is still much a bank to bank wire transfer, just using a different protocols. One of the attack vectors is making an account, filling it with money (eg stolen from the other accounts) following with the cash out and begone in the wind. With the near instant money transfers it would means it could be done VERY fast and nobody (except criminals) would be happy if that could be done easily. Having an account tied to your nation-wide ID means you can do it only once and then you have painted a target on your back by yourself. Of course there are SSN, KYC and other things, but aside from FBI's Most Wanted (joke) there is amusingly small list of things one US state entity can know about entity of other US state.

It is also always helpful to remember to treat US not as a country but as an association of countries under a single flag and currency. That way it would be much easier to answer multiple "WHY in America...." questions.

> It is also always helpful to remember to treat US not as a country but as an association of countries under a single flag and currency.

But is this materially any different to other federations, like Australia, Germany, and Canada (who’s provinces generally have significantly more autonomy than US states)?

> US still doesn't have a national-wide internal ID, and for the thing what essentially replaced it in function - driver's ID, every state has it's own format and idea what should be in it.

One of the nation-wide IDs actively in use is the tuple (state, driver_license_number).

Which means John Doe, DOB 11/12/1975, 6'12'' (OH, 123456) and John Doe, DOB 11/12/1975, 6'12'' (FL, 123456) are two different people!

Each identifier identifies a person. A person may have multiple identifiers. I have a non-US nationally-unique drivers license ID and a passport number.

> In the US, sending money to another person's account, especially as an individual, is a difficult process, often requiring giving long account and routing numbers that many of us were told not to give out. It also takes several days to process, and sometimes has fees of $25-30. Also some banks have limitations allowing you to do transfers only to accounts where the name matches.

Wow. Here in Russia you only need a phone number, and when you enter it all the banks that recipient uses are automatically shown to you when you, it takes about 5 second and is completely free.

It's not "completely free". If you transfer more than 100 000 roubles/month (~ $1360) then it costs 0.5% of the amount. There are also limits of about several hundreds of roubles per month.

If the recipient wants to withdraw the cash in less than 30 days after receiving the payment, the bank may request documents that prove compliance with anti-laundering regulations. If you fail to provide such written documents then the bank will charge a fee of about 5-10%.

Also it is not secure because anyone who has your phone number can learn in what banks you have accounts. And if you have an account in Sberbank, anyone can lookup your name by your phone number. Very convenient for criminals and scammers.

>If the recipient wants to withdraw the cash in less than 30 days after receiving the payment, the bank may request documents that prove compliance with anti-laundering regulations.

The US is similar with amounts over $10,000. Structuring transactions to avoid that number is also forbidden.

Writing a check instead won’t avoid that since the account and routing number are printed right on it

I can receive and cash a check from someone without giving them my account/routing info.

Ah yes, good point it does work for getting paid.

Oops, I could have reworded that paragraph to be clearer. Yeah, the check giver can't do much, but as the other commenters point out, the receiver of funds doesn't need to give out the numbers.

> Why would you use a piece of paper for any sum of money?

Because people like the assurance of a check, or a receipt, or a payment confirmation.

How do you initiate a wire transfer? Seems like you would need to know a lot about the recipient -- their bank and account number, for starters -- to be successful. Sure you could do it on a mobile device but seems a lot more time consuming than writing a check. Privacy concern as well.

What happens if the transfer fails or doesn't go through, for whatever reason? If you hand the recipient a check, they have physical proof that you intended to pay them, and they know the payer's bank and account number. What recourse, proof, or evidence does the recipient have for a failed wire transfer?

How do B2B transactions work? Is it all wire transfer or do they pay each other with checks? In the USA, a huge percentage of consumer payments have migrated from checks to debit/credit cards (with near-instant confirmation), but companies still use tons of checks via standard postal mail all the time.

Writing not from Poland, but from Czechia, which is similar. I have only seen checks arriving from the U.S., never used for payments within Europe as such.

If you receive an invoice to pay, it will have the correct account number on it. Also, nowadays, many merchants include a QR code that makes payment with mobile banking app much easier. You just start the app, it activates the camera, reads the image and all you have to do is confirm the transaction. Very fast and with few possibilities to make a mistake.

Landlords will give you their account number as well, it is usually written in the contract.

If transfer fails, it is your problem. I am not sure how Americans handle bounced checks, but if someone gave me a check that I was unable to clear, I would suspect them of fraud.

B2B is mostly wire transfers and sometimes credit cards. Bookkeepers prefer wire transfers, because matching them to invoices is usually trivial nowadays. Any good accounting program will do that for you.

As for privacy, I would feel a lot more comfortable giving someone my account number (they cannot really do anything bad with it) than my postal address. And if your business is a VAT payer, its account number will be publicly listed by the tax authority anyway.

All these issues (and many many other issues both in and outside of banking) have been solved problems for so long outside of the US that the rest of us have forgotten about them.

They've generally been "solved" as well inside of the US also, via debit cards, online/mobile banking, and ACH. I'd guess that most people handle fewer than 10 checks per year, outside of rent/mortgage. But there are occasions when checks come in handy and are preferable. I'm glad they remain an option.

> What happens if the transfer fails or doesn't go through, for whatever reason? If you hand the recipient a check, they have physical proof that you intended to pay them,

For most of Europe transfers are instant. So you’ll know if you’ve been paid or not pretty much immediately because you get a push notification confirming the payment within seconds of someone hitting send.

Reconciliation, Retries and other aspects are baked into that standardised payment system.There are countries that have completely abondoned cheques since early 2000s.

> Because people like the assurance of a check, or a receipt, or a payment confirmation

What is more assuring then the actual payment itself, transferred to you just as you talk?

> How do you initiate a wire transfer? [...] -- their bank and account number, for starters

Ugh, 21st century says hi.

Just a mobile number, some provider independent number, like SEPA [0] or in some circumstances just the plain plastic card number, be it a debit or a credit one.

> Sure you could do it on a mobile device but seems a lot more time consuming than writing a check

Scribbling something on the paper and taking it to the ATM/bank (or use said mobile to "online check it", oh irony) is sure to take more time than punching in some number in mobile or web app and actually transferring money.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single_Euro_Payments_Area

One reason, not everyone can or wants to open a bank account. Illegal immigrants, for example. Or people receiving food stamps, disability benefits, they often work for cash, because they can't show money in their bank account. You can cash a check at any walmart.

Our (the US) government, primarily the law making arm Congress, has been dysfunctional for so long it erodes various functions of society. For examples look at how the US doesn't have Federal bank accounts for individuals, or expanded services from the US Postal Service, proper simple taxation, straightforward immigration, digital identity management without the need for elaborate expensive physical identity documents--there are a range of issues that speak for themselves. Both of the prevailing parties have effectively the same problem, the Republican one has simply become so excessively backward and activist that it's more distracting, sort of a shiny object. Just consider gun rights and how there's no effective sense of responsibility associated with that right. Or that there's no Federal ballot mailing program for all locales and States (for example Puerto Rican's cannot vote for even the POTUS) despite there being high security and USPS services providing a solution with excellent scalability.

Cheques are an anachronism. I think I remember seeing my mother write a cheque some thirty years ago. I have never written or received one myself. I doubt I know anyone under fifty who has. Unless they've lived in the US, of course.

Depends a lot on the country. In France for instance, cheques are still very common, albeit less than before COVID.

Cheques are still pretty common in France, especially to transfer money from person to person for occasional transactions.

I really rarely use them but they are honestly pretty useful as a fallback to pay someone you trust (family, friend). It takes seconds to write, your grandmother knows how it works, it doesn’t require smartphone/a computer/a complex banking application, It doesn’t require communicating your bazillion characters long banking information, everyone accepts it for little sums, it works offline, it doesn’t require holding large amount of value, it’s easy to cancel if needed.

Yes it’s the least practical payment method and yes anything is better. But it always works where the rest doesn’t.

I'm in the USA, and I will use a check only if it is the only realistic option, and those cases are surprisingly common. I've probably written about 100 paper checks in the last 5 years or so. Looking through my records, here are some examples of places I do business with that do not accept credit cards, or charge a fee to use a credit card:

Mortgage company

DMV

County tax collector

Roofing company

Pest control company

Child daycare

Air conditioning company

School PTA

Landscaping company

Kid's gymnastics lessons

Pet rescue organization

Dues for a hobby organization

In the UK some people still use them. My elderly parents still occasionally send them to us. We don't take them to a bank or ATM though - bank apps will accept a photo of one and make the transfer instantly.

Define large sums of money, I can go right now to my bank and transfer 100,000€ instantly, or I can do a SEPA Credit Transfer if I ever need to, up to 999,999,999€.

So can I, or so could an American. But a cheque can be written on the spot, and as long as the recipient trusts the writer it's as good as cash. That's the real reason cheques are still around. No one writes a cheque to pay for groceries or a $2 item at a convenience store anymore, the way my mother used to do 35 years ago. For established relationships its often the simplest method, and it doesn't require an Internet connection or technology beyond a pen.

A large-ish cheque is $500-$50 000. Larger amounts would generally go through wire transfers.

Personally, I have never written a cheque, and have only had to purchase a money order once for an rental apartment damage deposit. But I have received plenty of cheques, either from work I've done for small businesses, or as regular paycheques before I set up direct payments with my employer.

I used to think like some here, that cheques are obsolete and anyone who uses them is dumb. But I was wrong; they serve a purpose, and there is no harm in them sticking around.

There is the same thing in EU, widely used by people without internet banking. It just has a different name and is usually handled by the post offices.

You're talking about bank transfers by paper order, right? That's different, because you don't give the order paper to the recipient of the money (who should then cash/deposit it at their own bank), but to your own bank, which will wire the money to the receiving account.

Is that still widely used? I think manual transfer orders have largely been replaced by direct debit (companies taking the money you owe them straight from your bank account).

Here in Central Europe we use "postal money orders". It works almost exactly like a check, the only difference is that the money is transferred to a state post organization first, then the paper slip is given to the recipient, and the recipient can either cash it out or have the money transferred to their bank account.

It's widely used by older people to receive pension and pay rent/utilities (these people often don't have access to internet banking, or don't know how to use it, or don't trust it), and by all other age groups to receive social security money (these people are often unable to have a bank account or would have their money taken from the account due to "executions" - payment orders forced on them by courts).

> Is that still widely used? I think manual transfer orders have largely been replaced by direct debit (companies taking the money you owe them straight from your bank account).

It depends on how much you trust that company with taking the right amount of money out of your account. Both fraud and honest mistakes on their side are your risks, even though they might be very low risks in practice.

Over-charging is actually very common, and then it's up to you to notice, then fill many forms (last time I had this problem I had to fill over 10 forms) and then personally visit their branch, and then wait months to get your money back. It's much better to pay by permanent payment order (automatic payment e.g. every month).

Where is that?

SEPA (European) direct debit payments can be reversed with about two clicks in your online banking environment. No questions asked. I believe you have three months to do that, or even longer if the company doesn't have your handsigned signature approving direct debit.

Of course, the company on the other side may not be happy, and may be sending you bills and threats. But that's no different when refusing to pay without direct debit. And yes, it's up to you to notice any errors. I haven't heard of any cases of outright fraud using this system, though it probably happens.

Here in Czechia it's SIPO and it's not that easily reversible, but you're right it's possible - but that's the process I'm talking about.

I bought my current car second-hand from a dealer. The best interest rate I could get by far was the line-of-credit loan I already had for my house. I bought the car on my credit card and eventually paid for it with the loan. Automatically done by the bank, of course. Even handling cash feels slightly old-fashioned to me.

I live in a country that still mostly prefers cash to electronic money transfers for many transactions. The individual reasons for that vary but mine is that I want to minimize the ability of third parties to profile me through my purchases (neither stores nor my bank).

Deutschland!

Wrong :-)

Accidentally, this is the country that is familiar with what happens when government has too much control over its citizens.

We have checks in France too, they're just not very popular.

Yeah, it depends, though.

A few months ago (in 2021!) I moved, so my old insurance had to reimburse some €40. While they never had any issue with getting paid directly from my bank account, for some reason they couldn't do the reverse and had to send a check.

Here in France, I find that they're still popular with the elderly customers ahead of me at the checkout.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TheSimpsons/comments/8zf31q/anyone_... … supermarket checkout queue

Same, but about using ATM at all. Don't you guys have contactless payment everywhere? It's 2021, what's the use for cash?

Bank cards have many disadvantages:

- there are fees and commissions for using a card, and there are limits on how much cash you can withdraw daily/monthly

- bank also charges the merchant and it makes prices higher for everyone

- bank knows what and where you buy, collects this information and can resell it

- your name is written on the card and encoded inside, so when you pay the merchant can identify you

- cards have a magnetic tape that is unencrypted, can be easily copied. It seems like the only use for this tape is to allow criminals to copy the card.

- new cards include RFID label that allows reading data about you and charge your account

- if you are suspected to be an "extremist", then the bank will allow you to withdraw only about $150 per month. And you can become a suspect if you post something wrong on the Internet.

Cash is obviously better.

> there are fees and commissions for using a card

There aren't for you as a customer. Yes, a bank would require the acquiring fee for each transaction but it's already in the price of the item both for the cash and the card.

> it makes prices higher for everyone

While true deep down there, the price of item is usually still covers all the things including returns, inventory spoilage, breakage and shoplifting. Acquiring fees are ~1-2% so most of the time they don't even register over a markup.

> bank knows what and where you buy, collects this information and can resell it

Most people are just fine with using an affiliate cards... which are used for exactly the same.

> your name is written on the card and encoded inside, so when you pay the merchant can identify you

Your card number is a way more unique identifier than some John Doe.

> cards have a magnetic tape that is unencrypted, can be easily copied.

Everyone (except US) moved from tape to chip and paypass systems which are way more secure.

> new cards include RFID label that allows reading data about you and charge your account

Only the card number and it is limited for small amounts.

> if you are suspected to be an "extremist", then the bank will allow you to withdraw only about $150 per month

This is the only thing where cash is obviously better for an ordinary person.

> There aren't for you as a customer.

I guess it depends on the bank or on the country. In Russia some banks have a small fee (usually about $1-$2 per month) for using a debit card, some don't have and some will charge a fee unless you spend more than a certain amount every month or deposit a specific amount. There can also be a small fee for issuing/reissuing a card.

Then there are indirect costs. You will probably want to receive SMS notifications when your account is debited or credited, and this is not free for cards that don't have a monthly usage fee. There can even be a fee for withdrawing funds from a debit card (using issuer bank's ATM).

Recently I read through different banks' terms and there are lot of things they can charge you for. For example, one bank will charge a fee for counting coins or small bills if you bring too much of them. Or there can be a fee for withdrawing money in bank's office below certain limit.

Generally, it seems that banks don't like customers who don't pay a fee - directly or indirectly (when making a purchase).

> In Russia some banks have a small fee (usually about $1-$2 per month)

Well, everyone everywhere wants a small fee for everything. Look at the cellular networks/providers... Although $1-2 is honestly cheap enough to have the convenience of cash-less operations.

> unless you spend more than a certain amount every month or deposit a specific amount

Amusingly this is exactly what I have right now, but I only discovered it pretty recently. Years ago it was really free for me because it was the company which footed the bill, but I don't work there anymore.

> There can even be a fee for withdrawing funds from a debit card

People should vote with their wallets against such practices. And honestly that should be illegal, but...

> one bank will charge a fee for counting coins or small bills if you bring too much of them

If I understand this properly this is against the law, at least if you are paying for something.

> it seems that banks don't like customers who don't pay a fee

Which is unsurprisingly because they are "for profit" institutions.

I use cash for:

1) paying my maid / house help

2) buying drugs

3) tips at restaurants / hotels

Also often traveling to 3rd world countries / somewhat corrupt locales. In these cases I make sure to have cash for bribes when the police invariably decide to shake me down.

1 and 2 are easily covered by adequate bank services, 2 is covered by bitcoin.

> the very idea of having to drive somewhere to physically deposit pieces of paper to transfer money around sounds absurd

The reason the US banking system is so relatively slow and manual compared to foreign systems is that the US has never felt a need to create a cheap and efficient federal electronic check clearing system. The US is a capital generating superpower and a marginal improvement in banking would be a drop in the bucket. Most other countries either need quick and efficient banking to maintain their capital generating industries or quick and efficient banking is their industry.

This sounds like going under the speed limit in the passing lane.

How common are cheques/checks still in the USA?

All our banks (NZ) stopped issuing cheque books and accepting cheques over 2020 - 2021. There were some rather elderly people who were inconvenienced, but the banks were pretty good at helping them adjust.

And it has been a very long time since anyone really accepted payment in cheque form - just due to the crime associated - back in the days when new chequebooks were mailed out to customers, criminals would routinely check mailboxes for letters that felt like a chequebook.

Still reasonably common, as it's (amazingly) usually cheaper than sending an electronic transfer. At least, that's my experience doing business banking in the US. (I'm Canadian, so don't have a lot of experience with personal banking there.)

About the being cheaper: checks are usually free. For Wells Fargo - a large U.S. bank - when you schedule payments online they will print a check and send it for free. If you want to transfer money via wire you are actually charged.

Coming from the EU I was shocked to find out that a lot of the B2B payments for small and mid size companies - are done sending checks in the mail.

Routing and account numbers are considered sensitive information, and normally hidden on online banking. My understanding is that these can be used to transfer money out of the bank account.

Isn't it easier to just mail checks to the bank? USPS is among a few things that still work in this country.

yah, it usually takes me 1-2 uses of any given atm to have the whole flow memorized for getting cash out, so that the next time i go, it's like speedrun time.

even at grocery self-checkout, the quirks of a given checkout machine get embedded in my brain so that i gravitate toward the quickest route through. produce lookup and weight vs. count are usually the biggest stumbling blocks. one nice trick is that the credit card terminal is independent from the checkout flow, so you can do those more-or-less in parallel towards the end.

and then the Person in front of you, pull a second card from his/her pocket and do the same procedure wit the second card...

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