Note: less infectious here means intra-cell, it's still more transmissible than Delta.
Another thread summarizing what this means: https://twitter.com/sailorrooscout/status/147509796693972172...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/2021/12/22/japan-covid-...
It also probably helps that like other asian countries they wear masks all the time, everywhere and without complaint.
Japan also currently doesn't let anyone in to the country.
Americans quite like splitting into factions, telling the other factions what the moral imperatives of the day are, and rebelling against what other factions tell them to do. It is a part of a somewhat broken sense of anti authoritarian bent which doesn’t recognize that authoritarian actions by your own group are equally problematic. Just a signal that once quite good ideology is degrading into something a bit strange, mostly just because of how information is distributed and education done.
And almost all Americans agree with this, because I didn’t actually name a political party. If there’s one thing that brings Americans together, it’s knowing that the other half is pure evil.
As an outsider, one of the US's core values is democracy and the democratic process.
Given the current push to undermine it, and the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot, and given the current level of support given to this dictatorial push, I have to say that from an outsider's perspective one side of America's political establishment clearly does not believe in American values.
Could you please explain how exactly the recent coup attempt intended to overthrow a democratically elected representative to install an authoritarian despot is not profoundly anti-democratic and thus anti-american, or how the coup was just a reflection of a "one-sided" coverage by the media? Regardless of how dissenting your view is, a coup to overthrow a democratically elected representative is still a coup.
Which is false of course, but consider how you would react if there were serious election irregularities, and your current PM/President was effectively a pretender?
A lot of people angry about the election are, at least superficially, acting in 'good faith'. They think they are fighting 'for democracy'.
Don't discount how segregated US information clearing is - I was visiting a family member today and heard some of their Facebook feed videos, it was totally shocking. This person does not absorb any kind of mainstream news information.
All day every day, they hear misinformation about vaccines and the election, so it becomes easier to understand how they believe nonsense.
One particular video, from an Irish Politician and MD no less, made claims that Omicron was 'just the flu' etc. and deferred to both the Irish government and Medical System for legitimacy. It was a very convincing video that I suggest most regular people would be moved by it, even though to a keen observer it was clear they were lying.
Indeed, the very article upon which we are commenting is hard to parse, to the point where in the interest of Public Good I wish all of these articles had some kind of translation for us plebes, at least during a pandemic where in it's a 'war of information'.
Now, I don’t personally believe this. But I also think sovereign citizens are stupid. I still think both sovereign citizens and “big lie” proponents are trying to interpret and apply American values, even if I think they’re misguided. I hope to be able to convince “big lie” proponents to understand my worldview in that the current President was legitimately elected, but first I think it’s important to understand their position.
That blend of belief is shared by a subset of militants, but that's the result of the years-long propaganda campaign devised by the militant group's leadership in preparation for the election campaign.
We're talking about a política group which dedicated itself simultaneously to sabotage the election campaign by attacking voting methods believed to be disproportionally and massively favoured by other candidates , and included the preparation of a coup to overthrow the political regime to continue holding power.
The myth about fraudulent elections, which preceded the election by over a year, was made up by the militant group's leadership, and we should not interpret it as a reasonable and natural excuse to push a self-serving myth.
--- "Take away our constitutional freedoms."
Right now, who is ordering who to stay home, to not go to the gym, to church, to a restaurant, to a private gathering - by force of law - and even imposing curfews?
For context, these might be some of the most broad and assertive challenges ever made on constitutional freedoms.
--- "They preach a hypocritical sense of morality while inflicting violence on those who cannot defend themselves."
There is one group of people in America who are killing themselves at 6x the rate of other Americans, and about 20x the rate of people of other countries.
They have hypocritically 'blamed' (at least in terms of populism) the issue on policing, which is very demonstrably not a direct cause, requiring police to pull back in many areas, and now we see the result, a 150% increase in violence among those same poor and vulnerable communities, that were already extremely violent. The major increase in lives lost is directly measurable in the thousands.
The #1 cause of death among this group, is violence from their own group.
Not 'some other group' assaulting them.
--- "They use gerrymandering and political tricks to hold on to power"
One group is trying to give voting rights to huge numbers of non-citizens at every level of government, because that group feels the new voters would vote for them, which is in terms of raw numbers, the most gigantic form of election gerrymandering ever conceived.
--- "Because of their incompetence, we’ve become a laughingstock on the world stage. "
New York, New Jersey, New Hampshire etc. are some of the worst hit by COVID in terms of deaths per capita, as for 'laughing stock' the Governor went down on sexual assault allegations, and charges of misrepresenting COVID information. Despite the careless populist rhetoric of some political fools, frankly, there isn't much of a serious political pattern across the nation in terms of outcomes - there's a pretty big 'obesity' pattern, which correlates strongly with race, but it also points to an issue in America overall vis-a-vis the rest of the world (i.e. obesity). But that isn't really a politically 'sided' issue so much.
...
I think you really did make the OP's point by pointing out how 'each side likes to blame the other' - I couldn't even fathom who you were talking about for sure.
However much I personally might support mask, separation and other restrictions, it's pretty oddly lacking in self awareness to talk about the 'Authoritarianism Of The Other Side' when literally politicians are ordering the most assertive transgressions of basic rights in history however legitimized or not.
As for Omicron ... we really don't know yet. Maybe this is the last real lockdown wave before lethality, treatments and vaccines provide enough protection.
The US has organized, in recent history, concentration camps based on the premise that national security was at stake.
More recently, the US employed secret prisons to torture people who were deemed persons of interest, both foreign and US citizens.
I'd figure that requiring basic personal higiene and public health measures, such as wearing a mask in public places to avoid spreading a disease which is already killed well over 800k US citizens, shouldn't even register as a concern regarding "constitutional freedoms". Yet, why is this only a concern, and the "most broad and assertive" one to boot, regarding constitutional rights in the US?
You see, that assertion does not pass any smell test. Think about it: any discussion, and complain, regarding the constitutionality of any policy is purely conceptual and abstract, and the conclusion is always absolute: either the constitution is violated, or it isn't.
Therefore, if anyone is honestly worried about the constitutional implications of a policy, they do not care if it affects everyone or even anyone. The discussion is purely conceptual: either the constitution is violated, and thus it must be upheld, or not.
With this in mind, any discussion on extrajudicial imprisonments, violations of the Geneva convention, and even extrajudicial assassinations, feature at the top of any concern.
And not whether you need to wash your hands or wear a face mask.
Think about it: how many times did the constitutionality of jailing people for pooping on the street was discussed in an election? Did fining people for not picking up their dog's poop ever became a divisive political talking point? Did you ever saw radical militant groups threatening with political action for being barred from urinating in public? Never, right?
This is the important part. They aren't worried about the constitution, they're worried that they have to do something they don't want to.
(I fully agree with their satirical point however ... it's just the wording of the examples was a bit off in my purview.)
After listening to a family member scroll through some shocking Facebook tirades today, I'm ready to believe a lot of Americans will believe almost anything about the 'other side', it's tragic.
It’s rather easy to come up with these. Take “your party believes in inflicting violence on innocent children.” The replies would be “But they broke the law, and we need to send them back to their own country” and “Embryos are not yet children.” But both sides are appalled at how the other can hate little children so much.
Im ok with the repercussions that society may face (eg, higher covid counts etc) to avoid such a society. Call me a monster but I want my daughter to know a world much more similar to what I knew 2 years ago than the one in black mirror, which I believe we tend to be accelerating towards.
If you really want to parrot that line, the very least you need to do is get informed about the issue you're trying to discuss.
Vaccines are safe and effective in training your immune system to handle a COVID-19 infection. That's how vaccines work. They are not, nor they ever were, a silver bullet that stops everyone from catching the disease and transmitting it to everyone the come across.
To put it very clearly and unambiguously to you, vaccines don't stop the virus from spreading, they only improve your chances of not dying from it.
Also, it's disingenuous to pretend that the current generation of vaccines, which was developed for the original Wuhan strain, also have the same effectiveness against subsequent strains such as the Delta and now Omicron strains.
Your blend of vocal ignorance is tiring. It feels like you're arguing in bad faith. A brief one-minute read on the topic is enough to clear up any possible misconception regarding the topic. Is that too much to ask?
The primary goal of masks is to reduce transmission.
The primary goal of vaccines is to reduce deaths.
Vaccines reduce deaths very well, but they only modestly reduce transmission. Using both together is much more effective and inexpensive than only using vaccines or natural immunity.
2. Covid can spread asymptomatically. Again, if you were sincerely interested in understanding this topic, you would know that extremely basic fact.
3. You have no way to know whether you were exposed to someone with Covid or not, unless you are never around other people. If you're never around other people, masks are a moot point, anyway.
4. We have been forced to wear (sometimes uncomfortable) clothing in public places due to fear for a long time. Women can't go into restaurants topless, even if it's not a city law. Fear-based or not, you don't get to decide whether you wear a mask on private land.
Walking in the world barefoot is a natural and normal thing. We should all probably be doing more of it, not shaming people for it.
The issue is mostly one of public health that has materially adverse affects on others.
Maybe it would be like driving on the highway without snowtires in the winter: it's reckless and you're going to hurt people. I think if most of us saw that happening (it happens) it kind of makes you mad to see how irresponsible it is.
Also the commentor above wrote about 'voting' concerning masks - it's not such a simple issue.
Democracy is not a 'Tyranny of the Majority'. It's why we have Constitutions etc.. Requiring people to do stuff in the normal course of their day is a pretty big step, we have to be mindful of regulating normative behaviours. It's easy to let rights slide away, we should have a bit better of a process for these kinds of things, and maybe tuck in a couple of laws after this is over for that purpose because the Courts don't have a lot to work with on a lot of these things.
Explain yourself, give me reasoning and talk to me about pros and cons of various things and we can probably get along very well.
Now there's a problem here. While you can debate such things with me and you and and many other people, there are also a lot of people out there that just do not respond at all to that. I would argue it's actually most people and that is what politicians have to deal with. That sucks for you and me.
I think wearing a mask indoors makes absolute sense. We can debate whether a cloth, surgical mask or N95 mask are in order but some type of mask that goes over mouth _and_ nose just makes sense given the airborne nature of this and other viruses. I will readily admit that I always found it weird seeing Asians running around w/ a surgical mask when they think they're sick w/ something but I've come to realize that it just made sense. They're doing the right thing.
I don't think putting alcohol on my hands multiple times a day is great for my skin or the natural skin bacterial flora at all but I really like the fact that I've seen less people run past the hand sanitizer at the store than people leaving the washrooms without washing their hands.
Are you telling me that you're one of those people that go to the toilet and don't wash up? I'm sorry but I don't want to second hand touch your junk! Ever!
If people can just stop their BS, get vaxxed, cover their face, and avoid gatherings, the pandemic would be over in a month, and we wouldn't need to do all this shit, would we?
Even if your personal assertion regarding the effectiveness of facial masks in containing COVID spread had any bearing in reality, don't you believe that such a low effort/high reward move is well justified given the current public health scenario, and more importantly the need to avoid escalating to higher-impact measures?
This irrational opposition to facial masks reads like ranting against other basic personal higiene etiquette, such as covering coughs and sneezes.
> This irrational opposition to facial masks reads like ranting against covering coughs and sneezes.
To me, it feels more like if you got told to keep your mouth covered all the time because sometimes you suddenly cough or sneeze.
Don't you believe that reducing or outright eliminating the chance that a single person you come across to not experience hospitalization or death due to covid constitutes a worthy reward given the tradeoff?
> Also, do you wear glasses?
Why do you feel this is relevant?
I agree that reducing the risk constitutes a reward. I don't agree it constitutes a high reward, since the reduction is only marginal.
> > Also, do you wear glasses?
> Why do you feel this is relevant?
Based on this response, I assume that you don't wear glasses, or you'd know exactly why it's relevant: masks make them fog up all the time.
I suggest you review your definition of "marginal". Even the use of low-effecriveness cloth masks have been observed as reducing the symptomatic seroprevalence of SARS-CoV-2 by about 9%, and in the outbreak aboard the USS Theodore Roosevelt it was associated with a 70% reduced risk of infection.
https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...
I also couldn't help notice how you base your personal assertions in no evidence or observation, and instead you simply repeat your baseless assertions without any substance. Do you feel this conveys any relevance to these personal beliefs?
I think his is actually misleading.
The vaccines significantly reduce transmission overall - mostly due to the fact people are much less likely to get COVID in the first place if they are vaccinated.
Where you can maybe have a point, is that people who are vaccinated - who do get COVID - may transmit it at the same rate as those who were unvaccinated and infected. Maybe.
But this is a secondary effect to the first order issue, which is that vaccines significantly reduce infections in the first place, and therefore reduces R0.
Yes, cloth masks are marginal, but they are at least 'another layer' of protection.
[1] https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...
Luckily my country is also a representative republic where we can vote for what policies we want. (Although I certainly have issues with the many ways my vote is subverted or rendered less-than others votes based on land.)
I think you have your causality mixed up a bit.
When I was younger I would take my coat off in the cold early spring to protest the fact that it hadn't warmed up enough, and, mostly in jest, insist that it was taking your coat off that harked warmer weather (when obviously the reverse is true).
In this case you are trying to do this same with masks, hasten the end of something you don't like by pretending it isn't happening. Unfortunately this ultimately makes a worse world for the both of you.
You obviously aren't the "monster", the monster is the thing that scares you so much you lose all reason, and confuse your causal arrows so much.
It's unfortunate that the world is in a state of decline right now, and I understand wanting to turn it back. But like all people who have tried to stop change by resisting you only ultimately end up making it worse.
It's because you can't accept the way the world is changing that it will progress this way faster.
Can you please point out precisely which OP's point you feel classifies as "misinformation"?
https://m.dw.com/en/how-japans-mask-culture-may-have-saved-l...
https://asia.nikkei.com/Spotlight/Coronavirus/Genetic-factor...
Also, underreporting and asymptomatic rates are much higher than initially assumed.
I’d be skeptical.