Is It Snowing in Portland, Oregon?
isitsnowinginpdx.com
isitsnowinginpdx.com
Also, snow in late December is relatively rare. We missed a white Christmas by one day. Only have an inch here where I'm at, but hey, take what you can get.
That said, having spent most of my life in Portland and also most of my life driving in the mountains in the winter to ski & snowboard, I can confirm that people in Portland can't drive in the snow. It's almost as amusing as people driving in San Diego in the rain. :-)
It is more common to see 4WD vehicles abandoned in ditches because they didn't realize 4WD doesn't help with braking or going down a hill.
Wanna learn how to drive in the snow? Tackle an unplowed, 45 degree hill littered with vehicles that didn't make it.
I'm sure your advice is a bit tongue in cheek? :D
I live on the hillier/colder/drier side of Washington where we do get some actual snow. During my kids' learning years of driving (16-18), first big snow, I find an empty/abandoned parking lot, take my kids there, do a couple of donuts and such, then throw the kid the keys, tell 'em "stay in the middleish and have fun."
They get a feel for massive understeer, sliding vs static fraction, etc this way. It makes it not a surprise later. Since they all have to learn to drive a stick (manual), we learn how to brake via downshifting too.
It all makes me feel skilled and is one of those rare moments where my teenagers actually think I have some useful wisdom to pass on still. Sadly, it earns me no credibility in any other area of their lives I'd like to peddle my wisdom to them. :)
Coeur d'Alene, ID here. My advice to "new to the area" people when the topic of snow driving comes up is "go to a parking lot...put your car into a slide, spin, etc". It gives you a very good idea of what the car is going to do on the road and more importantly...allows you to learn how to recover from those situations at a time where you are less likely to have panic set in.
It really only takes a few minutes to get the feel for how the car will react. Learning those things in a controlled situation is a very good way to develop the "instinct" to correct without panic. Most of the time hitting the brakes is the wrong thing to do...that is not natural to a panicking driver.
Definitely worth looking into in the PacNW.
Next slide will see them execute the correction on instinct.
Something to be aware of when shifting down on stick shift is that certain carts are really unbalanced when braking on the gear. You won't notice in the summer, but on slippery roads just releasing the accelerator carelessly while in a low gear can send you on a sled ride.
If you've driven a racing go-kart of the type that only has brakes on the rear axle, you'll be very familiar with this! Good practice.
This isn’t great advice unless you want your insurance premiums to go up.
If you want to learn to drive in the snow, drive in the snow. Get a feel for your vehicle. Drive slower than you think you need to. Know your route ahead of time and avoid inclines if possible.
Don’t play pinball with your car down a hill full of other cars.
The first key to effective snow driving is a light throttle and choosing the correct tyre. Driving in snow requires a tall tyre with a narrow section-width. This allows the tyre to cut through the crust and obtain traction on the hard surface beneath the snow (the opposite of sand tyres)...
And so on. I used to teach this stuff -- https://www.wittenburg.co.uk/offroading/Driving/Snow.html
It's like 'choosing' to slip through the snow wearing Oxford shoes, or, put on a pair of boots.
All of these comments about bad driving in the W. Coast, about 50% of this is just everyone has completely the wrong tires.
Snow is no stranger in Scotland either, and there's no snow tyres requirement in the UK.
Germany has a law that states you must have winter tyres or all-year tyres from October to Easter ("Oktober bis Ostern" - O to O).
Drive up to Tiffindell Ski Resort in South Affrica (8,920 ft up) in whatever you have - donkey cart, bicyle, 4x4... That gets snowed in regularly, and there's a just a hand-made "4WD recommended" sign at the bottom of the mountain.
I totally get the confusion.
... and why people are driving around in smash up derbies with just 2 inches of snow.
I'm only just saying 'there isn't that much confusion' elsewhere, it's not like Bostonians have super magical driving ability.
They mostly just have winter tires.
Winter tires with proper 4x4 and ABS etc. can be a pretty safe package.
But what really happens is we have a lot of people on summer tires or the crappiest of all season commodity tires. As long as you don't have to do an emergency stop or an evasive maneuver, they seem like they're adequate for Oregon weather. But I recommend everyone with such tires try a hard stop or turn (in a big parking lot of course) with these tires when it's sub-40F.
Fortunately I live on the California coast now, but when I had to deal with snow I had a set of Hakkapeliitta snow tires (from Finland), they were incredible. I wouldn't want to risk snow driving on any generic all-weather tires.
Snow tires also can't make stupid people not stupid, much to the chagrin of many an internet commenter and clipboard warrior.
As someone who is responsible for a fleet of vehicles that have to deal with snow I can say from experience that high end snow tires will not make empty RWD vans handle better than a run of the mill AWD crossovers on Walmart's finest all seasons. No amount of money can fix that kind of weight distribution.
It just keeps happening because there are new ones every year.
I was rather surprised to find out that my parents get a snow storm every year in late February or early March that dumps 1-3 inches of snow that takes several days to melt. They live not 40 minutes from La Jolla, a city in Southern California known for year round perfect weather.
They're barely at 3,000 feet elevation and as far as I know, the snow line in the Sierra Nevada mountains, even further north, is over twice that [1]. The nearest town a few miles away and a few hundred feet lower receives no snow whatsoever so we've been completely puzzled by the phenomenon. The funny thing is, I can't find any information about it online - it seems to be a very localized phenomenon in a sparsely populated exurban neighborhood and the locals just shrug about it.
I agree that most people don't care about climate mechanics, but it is well understood.
Chicago was a balmy 55 on Christmas Eve
in the lower to mid 40’s on Christmas Day
No white Christmas here
Only RAIN!
Thanks for making me smile this morning.
A fair number of plows in northern England too, the A66 across the Pennines is often blocked. Further south it’s typically just gritters spreading salt on the roads, but it’s rare to have the type of snow you need to shift.
We had heavy snow in the south east and northern france back in December 2010, my flight to the US was cancelled on the 22nd, I managed to get one from Paris to Newark for the 23rd, and had to drive from Bedfordshire to Paris. Felt like a massive blizzard driving though it, could barely see the tracks of the vehicle 800 yards ahead coming down through france.
Landed in a clear New York on the 23rd, but then went out for dinner opposite the hotel in Tribecca, possibly that night. The snow came down, and kept coming. First time I’d ever seen a snow plow in person, and the drifts the next morning with covering taxis. It was a different world to the 3-6” of heavy snow we were used to.
In the mountains in the PNW, there seems to be plenty of heavy-duty equipment for snow. But in the cities at 0 elevation, it’s just not worth the money, unless it starts snowing more frequently!
When snow falls in western WA, the fall at the start gets melted by the ground, and the refreezes as the following fall hits it. This results in an ice layer covered in snow.
The states with frozen ground don't get that bottom layer of snow melting, giving them just ground covered by snow which is not as challenging to drive on as snow on ice.
So what we get in western Washington is that when it snows it gives us a particularly annoying kind of snow for driving. Combine that with us not getting snow frequently enough to get good at snow driving even in regular snow, and driving is a mess when it snows here.
Which is why cities that competently deal with snow begin salting immediately when it starts snowing.
In my experience in Seattle what I've seen a lot is the snowmelt washes salt downhill, so you generally just get back to square one.
In a place with consistent high population growth like Portland, induced demand would create congestion on 2, 3, 5, or even 10 lanes of road.
Investing in modes of transport where each person requires less space is the only way to have both population growth and not look like Houston or Dallas or Atlanta.
Like anything else, it's about tradeoffs. This series of planning decisions had a ton of downstream consequences, both positive and negative (and I'm happy to enumerate plenty of examples of either). I certainly don't enjoy the amount of traffic that has come with the city's growth --- I'm a lifelong Portlander, and have watched it happen --- but I firmly believe that more freeways would not solve the problem. Induced demand is a thing, and there is also geography to contend with. For example, one of the biggest traffic choke points is the freeway coming in to downtown from the western part of the metro area; since the 80s, there have been several major (one might even say "meaningful") projects that have widened it about as far as it is possible to go, but at this point there's literally nowhere else to put another lane. Of course, part of why it's a choke point is that after the tunnel it immediately intersects with another ill-sited freeway --- one of the last ones built before our "revolt," and one whose siting and construction caused logistical problems that the city is still dealing with, fifty years later.
Anyway, it's complicated, but the local government "betting the future on light rail" is not the reason traffic has gotten as bad as it has. Population explosion, geography, and seventy-odd years of path-dependent decisions about freeway placement and urban planning are the reasons.
I personally believe that part of the problem is Portland's style of government. There's a pretty good reason why it's the largest city in the US governed by committee. Though to be fair that may not really explain the whole problem. Just trying to design a replacement bridge across the Columbia cost 175 million without ever doing anything. Dysfunctional is an understatement for Oregon.
And yeah, "dysfunctional" only begins to describe the Columbia bridge debacle. But I will say, in defense of the project and its staff: that was a spectacularly challenging problem to solve. One of those fractal problems, where the more closely you look at it, the more complex it gets. The physical challenges were already going to be hard enough, and then the twelve-dimensional politics of the situation made it even more so. I don't pretend to know what the best solution would even be, but like everybody else in town I was disappointed to see it blow up after so much had been invested in it.
Seattle tends to lose it's mind when there is barely any snow...but as soon as you get past Issaquah people start driving like they have been in snow before.
I remember one trip coming over the pass maintaining 50-60mph with a ton of snow...but as soon as I got down the hill everyone was driving 25mph on the freeway.
Mostly the PNW communities inland have it together when it comes to snow. Aside from certain areas such as Tri-Cities south to Umatilla, Columbia river gorge and the mountain passes you can typically expect to at least be able to get to your destination without issues. Central Oregon (HWY97) uses what appears to be crushed lava rock on the highway...which is quite nice.
From what I have seen though...the coastal areas (or any area which doesn't regularly get snow) people, cars and road crews are not prepared for what happens when it falls.
I live and grew up in North Idaho...outside Spokane. Snow driving is just something you accept and learn to prepare for. If I lived in Portland though I would likely stay home. It isn't "my" driving I am worried about. It is the person who has near 0 snow driving experience, and/or in a car without proper tires and maintenance that is going to be the issues.
At night you should never outdrive your headlights...in winter you should never outdrive a reasonable stopping distance. If you are not prepared or comfortable operating a vehicle in the snow...don't drive for a few hours or even days.
Driving at 25mph in a ton of snow seems a lot more sensible than driving 50-60mph, especially if your vehicle isn't equipped with snow tires.
Snow related accidents are often caused by people not slowing down.
Agreed...drive the speed which you feel safe. The point was that to the people who don't see snow "any snow" is unsafe...meanwhile...those who drive in it regularly don't even notice.
Just like the amount of snow which shuts down most of the nation doesn't even seem to make the news when it happens here.
Although, I would argue it is even more risk to drive significantly higher or lower than the average speed being maintained by the traffic flow. If you do not feel safe at that speed...don't drive. Stay home a few hours or days...let the plows get out there.
The main point of my statement wasn't about "what is a safe speed"...it was about the very clear difference of "speed of traffic flow" as soon as you get off of the pass. In the original case I was discussing...I had drove 300+ miles at 50-60mph (speed of traffic flow)...then the last 10 miles the average traffic speed cut in half (which was also the best weather conditions).
I made a comment about it to my friend when I got to Seattle and his comment was "yeah...people over here lose their minds when any snow falls"...up until that point I had no idea that was a thing.
There's just so much shit going on on the roads, compared to the east coast. They're little things here and there, but I found myself completely unable to drive on "autopilot." Nothing is intuitive; there's gotchas everywhere. Either there's an absolute bombardment of road markings and signs, or there's none at all (so you're either completely overloaded with information, or you don't have enough).
For example: you have bikelanes that merge into the center lane from the outside (without any strong indication, so I always assume the right-hand lane is disappearing -- but no, it's still there, so you always miss the turn). You have the absolute mess of highways that exit off into major stroads (!). Everything is so densely-populated that it's impossible to figure out where exactly you are, because there's so much going on.
It's like too much thought was put into road planning. There's too much shit going on.
Minnesota, showing how it's done: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DYl3SNm4KHs
But it’s an opportunity to get all territorial and worked up so we get threads like this.
If you want some humorous questions / etc. regarding snow, at the moment, check out the CHP Truckee Instagram account. 70ish miles of Highway 80 from Colfax to the Nevada state line is closed at the moment, and may be until Tuesday. All the people that "relocated" during Covid are experiencing the first real winter up there.
Driving around, slow and steady is the rule. Knowing the capabilities of your vehicle (and your driving skill limits), being prepared in case you get stuck, etc. are important.
I'm kinda surprised by this sentiment. I'm in a program in Oregon, been there for years, and drove down to Southern California. Rained the entire way. I can attest that the differences in driving in the rain are very different and definitely gets worse the more south you go. Going through the grapevine was terrifying and when I was in LA the carpool lane was just completely flooded. People always have more to improve but people in the PNW drive much safer in the rain there than most other places I've lived. People there at least know not to put on their brights in heavy traffic when it's pouring. But also I've never seen heavy flooding, especially on the highways.
As for other areas, The South is hit or miss. They get far heavier rain than the PNW but it's over a shorter period of time (though that means more flooding and so there's something to be said about what the cities could do to make things better). They do have a ton more potholes too so I'm not too surprised though. But they also have a lot less money than CA.
Accelerate to 30-40 and slam on the brakes.
Take a sharp turn in both directions and find the speed you lose traction.
Do a few donuts.
30-40 minutes of practice every year really helps you understand how your car will perform in the snow and you can decide if you need new snow tires, brakes, etc. You'll also be honing skills for that avoiding the inevitable bozo that tries to kill you that year.
I used to have a subaru and the better weight distribution made the car much more stable.
Multiple times in the last month, I've driven a stretch of Hwy 80 between Sierraville and Truckee (about 25mi) and have seen all sorts driving beyond their ability and having or coming very close to accidents. Always love when people try and pass with a blind turn coming up. I also tend to pull over and back off to let darwin do his thing.
A friend, observing the people who relocated to Montana, suggested that a surprise snow storm in the bay area on a weekday morning would solve the housing crisis very quickly, though for time there would be a massive backlog in the morgues.
From the sounds of it Portland is to snow as L.A. is to rain. Any sign of the slightest of moisture in the air and Angelenos lose their shit and drive like dummies.
In LA, I think the issue is that people drive the exact same in the rain. There are no adjustments made to speed or space for braking.
It’s normally a 4.5 hour drive, but with snow chains and delays I could see it being closer to 10.
[1] https://www.tripcheck.com/DynamicReports/Report/RoadConditio...
Edit: To those who said that's a SoCal thing: I Know. I got razzed endlessly when I moved to Reno from the Palm Springs area for saying "The 395, The 80", which are the only two freeways in the region lol.
But I would be interested to see something well-researched on the topic.
Edgar Wright went to incredible trouble to set the film in Atlanta. It features Atlanta landmarks, culture, food, and dialect. It feels quintessentially Atlantan.
Despite that effort, they're constantly referring to highways and interstates with the definite article. "The 75", "the 85", "The Buford Highway". We don't do that here, and it sounds a bit like nails on a chalkboard.
It's hard to fault the film for this trivial issue, but it is amusing.
What bothered me more was how one chase scene (I can’t remember which one) went in like the wrong direction. I love the film, but seeing them get so many details about Atlanta almost right and then get location/direction stuff wrong was pretty funny for someone born and raised in Atlanta. I imagine it’s how LA people must feel all the time!
Seattle is worse at snow than Atlanta, something I didn’t think was possible. I avoided most of the 2019 snowpacalypse because I was in Australia (I smartly changed my flight and flew to LA early so I wasn’t stranded in the airport when the snow really hit like some of my colleagues…spending a day at Disneyland instead of worrying about making my connection to my 15-hour flight to Sydney was one of the smarter travel decisions I’ve ever made), but I was in Bellevue of all places before it really came down for a work-offsite, but it was icy and there were drifts, and it was shocking to me how poorly even the commercial areas dealt with ice and snow. I had to have my husband bring my snow boots from NYC to where I was staying 12 miles away (at The W) so that I wouldn’t break my neck walking across the street from the hotel to the venue of the off-site. I understand the lack of infrastructure, but it was again, worse than Atlanta. And Atlanta is a city that doesn’t have mountains/ski resorts nearby.
Last year, it snowed a bit and they were downright negligent about clearing out the snow and ice in front of my luxury apartment building/the busy sidewalk, making it nearly impossible to even leave (even by car, let alone if you were trying to walk). A lot of that was on the building owner, but the city was equally negligent with its lack of attempts to make streets accessible by foot or by car. A girl at UW died in 2019 because the school both didn’t put out proper signage for ice and didn’t do the rational thing and try to de-ice campus.
Like I said, I never thought I’d see a city handle snow worse than Atlanta. But the PNW (and Seattle especially) certainly does.
[1]: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/01/atlanta-snow...
Here in Seattle, I was lucky that I was only a block from a grocery store. Roads may have been bad, but I wouldn't know. Just stuck closer to home.
Of course, now I live out down a non city maintained road. Guessing it will be longer before I get out, this time.
I spent most of my life in Minnesota, and even there, people think they can handle snow (which they do better than folks here in the Puget Sound region). But every year, there are huge pileups, gruesome accidents, slowdowns, etc. They, just as people east of the Cascades, have more experience, but I would stop short of saying that they 'handle it just fine.'
Never knew Oregon was this beautiful, I’ll definitely explore it more soon. :-)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UPTt6MgsOt8
Skip to 1m20s to save time.
https://www.spokesman.com/stories/2021/dec/26/shawn-vestal-r...
They probably should choose a smaller area to make this useful (for somebody).
The site owner doesn't enforce HTTPS for some reason but supports it at the same time.
Duh.