Completely different scale with an incredibly low fraud rate. Not to mention consumer protections put in place by banks (i.e. recoverability). This analog is disingenuous.
[0] - https://www.nacha.org/content/ach-network-volume-and-value-s...
[1] - https://www.nacha.org/news/ach-payments-have-lowest-fraud-ra...
Hence why it's not in the news...I still don't understand your point?
But instead no proportions are mentioned in a crypto fraud, just large dollar values paraded as if its unique
It is intended to distort perception and its silly
The earlier information you were exposed to is simply being assigned a higher weight arbitrarily.
Arguably, for bitcoin, the fraud rate could be said to be 0%. Every transaction was requested in accordance with the terms of request and was sent where it was expected to be sent.
PayPal used to boast of a fraud rate of something like 0.6%, but that was fraud against PayPal, and excluded payors or recipients being defrauded when PayPal just sent the money back to other.
SendBank sends $X dollars, ReceiveBank receives $X dollars. Imposter then cashes $X out of ReceiveBank (usually giving fake info). What's a scenario of fraud where this isn't the case? AFAIK there is no instance where the money simple disappears during transmission. FYI - This is why there is so much KYC done when you setup a bank account at a bank, so if you do cash out they can trace you.
> Arguably, for bitcoin, the fraud rate could be said to be 0%.
Agreed. This is exactly the problem (1) with crypto in general and (2) how difficult it would be to even calculate fraud for any cryptocoin.
Would this be fraud against ACH or just fraud against ReceiveBank?
Criminal initiates $X on behalf of Victim (or tricks them into doing so) using SendBank. Criminal then gets the money at ReceiveBank and usually withdrawals it before it can go noticed. Criminal therefore commits fraud against victim.
Since both banks are in the interest of keeping Criminals out and Victims (well just normal person/biz), they usually offer the ability to safeguard the Victim against financial harm, usually by paying the Victim money their money back and eating the cost. Hence why KYC is so important on both sides.
This is all conducted through a trust system that crypto fans love to hate because it's "centralized". AFAIK no crypto coin offers this ability because the trust system is inherently built on the idea that no person would ever be tricked into sending money to someone they didn't intend to, which is, ummm a downright terrible assumption about real world behaviors.
How on earth was ACH's design approved in the first place? It violates practically every principle of good transactional system design.
That's actually not a clawback in ACH parlance: that's just a transaction rejection, which causes the original transaction to "bounce" and enter a remediation process.
Clawbacks are done via "return records", which can be issued separately of any transaction records. Clawbacks, in turn, can be dishonored and countermanded by the RDFI. I wrote a short summary of the different rules here[1].
> How on earth was ACH's design approved in the first place? It violates practically every principle of good transactional system design.
ACH's design comes from the 1960s. It was designed for a time when the average American used their physical checkbook to pay for everyday items, and there was no reliable (non-military) nationwide computer network. Its design looks bad because it's optimized for forces that are currently mostly irrelevant, but used to be common: tens of thousands of tellers filing physical paper, smudged checks, typos by secretaries, delays in the mail network, the cost of long-distance calls, &c. They probably didn't even have a sound notion of a "transaction" in the ACID sense, given that Jim Gray didn't develop that particular paradigm until the 1970s.
ACH's flexibility and complexity make it look staid and antiquated compared to modern settlement systems, but it's all there for a good (historical) reason.
[1]: https://blog.yossarian.net/2019/12/25/A-shallow-dive-into-th...
But as for why it's taken so long: banking in the US is, for various reasons, significantly more complicated than banking in most other countries. The US has thousands of FDIC-insured banks and credit unions, each of which operates under a patchwork of municipal, state, and federal regulations. Banks are (mostly) required to honor each other's checks and transactions which means that, in the worst case, there's a total graph of all ~10,000 banks and credit unions serving as both ODFIs and RDFIs[2]. Transaction failures between any two nodes in that graph are a possible compliance failure, so any common mechanism is both a lowest common denominator and resists any modernization or other changes than can cause disruption.
[1]: https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/fednow_about.h...
[2]: It's actually simpler than this, since the ACH clearinghouses serve as a central resolution and dispatch service for all ODFIs and RDFIs. But each O/RDFI still has to interpret the ACH record(s) they receive, so there's still extraordinary inertia against any changes.
banks provide a user experience that makes them pretend to get the money back, a crypto bank can pretend to do the same thing, hardly a one to one comparison
It's difficult to find statistics for the percentage of money recovered from fraudulent ACH transactions, but this industry survey[2] says that 92% of fraudulent transactions are discovered within two months (and 79% within one month). Given that NACHA allows clawbacks within 60 days, that offers a relatively bright prospect for funds recovery compared to an irreversible transaction.
[1]: https://www.nacha.org/news/ach-payments-have-lowest-fraud-ra...
[2]: https://www.synovus.com/-/media/files/business/webinars/2021...
Bitcoin would be calculated by value deemed as being defeauded from users onchain as payments and on exchanges, that year, and compared to a portion of its.. marketcap? or by quantity of non-fraudulent transactions?
Since bitcoin is all one kind of payment method (well lightning would be different), it would have to be compared to the other kinds mentioned in the nacha article too, ACH + ATM + Card fraud
For bitcoin I would say the data doesnt exist, but even with the headlines trying to break down just bitcoin for that year, it would be fairly low I’m thinking, even $1bn in fraudulent irrecoverable transactions would be a single digit. Percent or maybe down to a couple basis points as well just like NACHA brags about
Yep, this is a serious problem when quantifying fraud in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies. It's concerning in its own right that we don't really have a reliable, standard way to quantify fraudulent behavior in cryptocurrencies.
> Since bitcoin is all one kind of payment method (well lightning would be different), it would have to be compared to the other kinds mentioned in the nacha article too, ACH + ATM + Card fraud
This doesn't make sense on two fronts. First, ATM fraud is ACH fraud, since ATM transactions are settled by ACH. In other words, you'd be double-counting there. Second, payment card fraud is diversified: it's either debit card fraud (which is also ACH-settled, and thus would be double-counted) or credit card fraud, which is fraud against the lending party and has its own (even simpler!) dispute resolution process.
All told: we need actual numbers to make a coherent comparison here. In the absence of that comparison, ACH's performance on an absolute scale is admirable.
> The Fed also reported that card fraud went from accounting for less than two-thirds of the value of fraud in 2012 to more than three-quarters in 2015. “The fraud rate, by value, of card payments and ATM withdrawals combined increased from 7.99 basis points to 10.80 basis points,” the survey found.
Peculiarly about a different set of years
a financial institution custodying bitcoin can do that too
I never hear of people paying invoices with Bitcoin.
I received half of it in Bitcoin and the other half via old fashioned bank transfer. It was a neat experiment, and I plan on accepting payment in crypto for some invoices that I send in the future as well.
Some people will never get it
Many of us have more bitcoin or other crypto than dollars at any point in time, directly onchain (as opposed to on an exchange, which can have extra steps or even the same limitations as any other financial institution). Even if we have a whole portfolio of other assets, its still not dollars available for trade.
If we want something instantly, internationally or outside of business hours or at a large amount, the bitcoin can accomplish that pretty instantly (few seconds with lightning, 1-20 minutes with 1 confirmation onchain transaction). Almost every other crypto asset can do it even faster.
There are discussions to be had about the state of bitcoin/crypto invoicing software
Bitpay’s used to be good and then they made it almost useless
I can’t recall hearing about anyone paying an invoice in Brazilian real. That doesn’t make me assume it never happens.