Sensor Network Technology in Vinge’s a Deepness in the Sky | Hacker News Reader

Sensor Network Technology in Vinge’s a Deepness in the Sky

blog.regehr.org

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"The main thing we know about the QHL’s software is that it is large and complex enough to defeat a years-long “software archeology” effort directed at determining whether the nodes can be trusted (in the end, they cannot)."

"cheap, effective sensor nodes lead to a government with the capacity for ubiquitous surveillance, which leads to a police state, which leads to societal collapse or worse."

It feels helpful to reframe "can it be trusted?" as "who knows more about its emergent runtime behavior?" This makes it more obvious that there are answers that can't be found by staring at the source code. Vinge was likely aware of the unanticipated behavior of the Morris worm (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_worm) when he wrote Deepness. In the years since this book, we've seen more examples (stuxnet[1], ethereum[2]) of software with behavior unanticipated by -- and even weaponized against -- its creators.

(I'm very interested in this subject, and research ways to prevent unanticipated runtime behavior. My approach can be summarized as, "keep software small and simple to stay out of dark forests[3].")

[1] "accidentally spreading beyond its intended target" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuxnet#History

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethereum#The_DAO_event

[3] https://www.paradigm.xyz/2020/08/ethereum-is-a-dark-forest

Funny I should see this here, having just reread the book two days ago. Apart from the Sci Fi elements, of which Vinge is rightfully lauded, I love how much depth there is in the book w/ regard to individuals’ scheming and how layered the conversation is. At one point two factions of humans are listening to a live-translation of an alien radio show debate between rivaling aliens. The scene simultaneously moves forward the plot for each of the human factions, each of the alien factions, and the translators themselves, all of whom extract important info unnoticed by the others. Later it’s revealed the situation was /even more complicated/ than anyone thought as misinterpretations occurred across the board.

Does anyone else have recommendations for sci fi or otherwise with such complex intrigue?

The next best thing is the Three Body Problem. But in many aspects I find Vinge's works unrivaled.

Can you suggest what to Vinge novel(s) to pick up after Fire in the Deep and Deepness in the Sky?

Rainbows End is a great standalone novel. And Marooned in Realtime is like old school Asimov with great new ideas... you can skip its prequel Peace War.

I found Peace War very interesting on two axis. First, the exploration of human intelligence augmentation and second the commoditazation of nuclear weapons impact on politics and "state" ie when the state no longer has a monopoly on violence. I personally did not enjoy Rainbows End much, whatever that's worth.

Iain M Banks' series of Culture novels are extremely good and mostly don't revolve around action. Not quite the same but if you enjoyed Vinge you'll likely enjoy Banks as well.

I’ll second Rainbows End, and add in its earlier incarnation, the novella Fast Times at Fairmont High.

I'll also recommend Rainbows End. I believe it contains a pretty good prediction of what millimeter wave 5G could become.

Marooned in Real Time

I bounced off of Rainbows End but really, really liked Marooned in Realtime. It's tied with Deepness for my favorite book of his. You don't need to read it's predecessor, The Peace War, which is fine, but nothing special.

Peter F. Hamilton's work fits that description, though his page to page writing isn't as good as his ability to spin a plot.

I believe the sensors are used more prominently and are actually an essential element of the plot in "A fire upon the deep".

In that book, giant ships are being powered by computer systems that are so complex, nobody fully master them and you need computer archeologists who spend their entire life studying how those system works to maintain and improve them. The hero of the book is actually one of those archeologists. If I remember correctly, he's the only one to know the meaning of the "unix epoch".

Edit: got my wires crossed. Indeed the book I am refering is actually the one mentionned in the article.

You're thinking of "A deepness in the sky" :) One of my favorite passages: http://akkartik.name/post/deepness

“The word for all this is ‘mature programming environment.’ Basically, when hardware performance has been pushed to its final limit, and programmers have had several centuries to code, you reach a point where there is far more signicant code than can be rationalized..."

The heat death of programming

My favorite part of that was the historical mix-up - the Qeng Ho, and presumably the rest of humanity, assumed that the Unix epoch marked the moon landing, which was only six months' off!

As the article refers to, the technology demo 20 years ago got as far as deploying the sensors from a radio-controlled airplane, and then driving a tank nearby, and receiving and processing the sensor data received. I can only imagine how far this technology has developed in the meantime.

I'm vaguely disappointed I can't go down to Costco and buy a 100-pack of localizers to sprinkle around my own property.

> I'm vaguely disappointed I can't go down to Costco and buy a 100-pack of localizers to sprinkle around my own property.

I choose to be very glad that my neighbors can't wait for an opportune gust of wind to spread a 100-pack of localizers to my property.

Ubiquitous sensors would be a great thing for owners of large parcels of property ... such as farmers and ranchers.

But maybe not such a good thing for civil liberties.

I love how Vinge explores these issues in his books. He's really underrated. When The Expanse was announced, I was excited ... but a bit disappointed that that series made it to the screen as the first hard sci-fi book across the line, before Vinge's work.

It probably would be possible to turn A Deepness In the Sky into a TV series, but it would need about the same high budget and first season run time as the Foundation series (10 hours?) to really go into sufficient depth on the 3 different cultures involved, and the order of events in that one book alone.

It would be an interesting challenge to depict the Spiders in a manner faithful to the book, given the plot twist at the end that <rot13>rirelguvat gur uhznaf (naq gur ernqre) unq yrnearq nobhg gurz unq orra guebhtu na haeryvnoyr aneengbe – gur uhzna genafyngbef jub unq "ybpnyvmrq" (uru!) rirelguvat jevggra sebz gur Fcvqref' crefcrpgvir.</rot13>

My instant thought for a solution to this: Fcvqre frpgvbaf nf n phgr navzngrq pnegbba, hagvy arne gur raq jura jr frr perrcl barf eraqrerq nf PT/cenpgvpny rssrpgf/jungrire.

V ernyyl ernyyl rawblrq cvpghevat gurfr fgrnzchax, fbeg bs Unlnb Zvlnmnxv fglyr fcvqref jvgu snapl qvaare tybirf naq gbc ungf qevivat nebhaq va pnef, qhevat gur svefg cbegvba bs gur obbx. Fhpu na vagrerfgvat yvgrenel nccebnpu, gb jevgr nobhg gur punenpgref nf vs gurl jrer whfg yvxr hf. Fb zhpu bs ubj jr creprvir (naq jevgr nobhg) bhefryirf vf onfrq ba uhznaf orvat gur zbfg vzcbegnag cneg bs nal fgbel.

Ideally Pham would be played by Chow Yun Fat, Sammy Park by Teo Yoo, Tomas Nau by Kevin Spacey, and Anne Reynolt by Lana Del Ray.

Rotoscope could be used for Spiders.

Vernor is a proponent of ubiquitous sensors as an alternative or as an adjunct to AI; the example he likes to use is what he calls the "localizer", a simple sensor that can detect its position relative to other nearby sensors of the saem type.

So instead of complex vision systems to find, say, a part in a bin in a warehouse, a locator attached to the item would inform the network that it was "Two items down and three across in bin #243. Oh, and I am upside down", allowing a robot to quickly retrieve the item. It's an interesting approach to what Robert Forward called "artificial stupidity".

I've got this idea that, given some R&D and technological advancements, an advanced military could drop 'dust sensors' over a future battlefield, or entire country.

Each particle of dust is a tiny computer with simple sensors, near field laser beam directed stealth communication node, FOF identification sensor, and maybe more. Soldiers could plug into this network (all properly encrypted, yadayada) en see and listen to the enemy. Dust covered vehicles could be tracked as long as they stay in a well-dusted area.

The idea is not that the enemy cannot see that you've 'dusted' their country/battlefield, but that you've dropped so much of this self-organizing sensor dust that they cannot block it all.

I'm assuming that the dust could be radiation hardened against EMP or other area of effect 'cleanup' measures, and that they are powerful enough to run proper cryptographic code, to ensure proper functioning of FOF and the communications.

I've long suspected that this route would be a much more likely path for an interested alien civilisation otherwise disinclined to make contact with us to take.

I also suspect that at least some insects have been utilised for similar intent. The trouble is in figuring out which ones... .

Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age" has some discussion of nano-machine "dusts" and the inevitable arms race when opposing factions both use them.

"The QHL is not depicted as being able to move itself; it is moved passively around its environment by riding on humans, air currents, etc. However, at least a bit of mobility is implied by the presence of a magnetic actuator and by the QHL’s ability to create a gritty surface on a switch."

The way I imagined this while reading the book was that the sensors are ubiquitous, so it's not about making them move so much as selecting the sensors in a specific area to view imagery from or enable grit attraction on.

One of my favorite sci-fi books. I had a lot of fun thinking about how I would implement the localizers. I don't have the relevant background so I later found out that my ideas, some of which I put into a blog post[0], were rather naïve.

Anyway, great timing to see this posted over the Christmas break. I wanted to reread The Witcher, but this has revived my desire to read more of Vernor Vinge. Recommendations welcome.

[0]: https://manyagents.ai/posts/001_swarm

Linda Nagata is another author worth reading for ideas about sensors, nanotechnology, and autonomous aircraft.

at long last we have created the torment nexus

There are some technologies that should not be created.

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