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Comment by michaelbarton | Hacker News Reader

“How to change your mind” by Michael Pollen.

I read a lot of books, and this is one that caused a change in my life. The succinct summary is that psychedelics are misunderstood and there is more and more research showing their potential, especially in the treatment of trauma.

I had a difficult childhood. It’s something I still struggle with personal interactions because of this, even after years of therapy. After reading Michael Pollen’s book I thought this might be something that could move the needle on my day-to-day quality of life.

I found a shaman and did an 8 hour blindfolded mushroom trip. Similar to what’s outlined in the book. Previously I’ve never done anything more than weed occasionally.

It had a profound impact on me. The way I describe it is like jumping off a diving board into a deep dark pool, and the pool is you. Then spending hours there.

I don’t know if I’d do it again but I learnt a lot about myself. I won’t proselytize here either, because the research is still early. There’s also risk because you put a lot of trust in someone who’s there with you while you’re high. But I do recommend at least reading the book.

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As someone that works in psychedelic research I must say that this book did more for the acceptance of psychedelics as a legitimate therapy with mainstream America than anything, ever.

The number of “straight-laced”, “9 to 5” people that have mentioned this book to me when they find out what I do is so high I pretty much expect it at this point. I personally was bored reading the book but only because I am so familiar with the space and I don’t find his writing terribly interesting but I truly believe his book did more to legitimize psychedelics than anything that came before it. People used to think I was some fringe weirdo before that book, now I’ve had strangers tell me I’m “their hero.” That’s not a joke. I’ve had two different people, on two different occasions say that to me, and both of them mentioned his book.

I had a similar experience with ayoaska. It removed some traumas that were blocking my self awereness and in some way growth. This helped me in my personal and professional life. I recommend it but should be taken with caution and in a security manner.

I'm in a similar headspace as you - not a druggy but went that shamanic route. 2x Ayahuasca ceremonies and 5 grams of mushrooms a few years ago... changed my life.

I recommend only doing mushrooms once or twice a year at most for larger dosages and once or twice a month at most if doing 2g or less. If you do it more regularly you may have diminishing returns. Cannabis I'd do at most once a month if at all. San Pedro can also be extremely good at low dosages. Alcohol is a no go.

Please be careful with dosages, set & setting, what you ate the previous weeks, how rested you are etc. Try to source good/clean mushrooms/cannabis. Always know exactly what you put into your body. Respect those plants and their power. When feeling the effects kick in, say hello to the "spirit" and welcome him/her for visiting you, like an old friend.

What would you say a good dose is for San Pedro? Have you ever tried a higher dose?

Typically a 30cm cutting is enough to send you to space if you use the boiling/tea method. For 16 hours at least. It is not a short journey so be careful with how much you take.

I typically do NOT boil them. I cut them up into disks and remove the skin and white stuff, then only keep the green slimy parts. Then I dehydrate them (make sure they are super dry - wait a week if you have to). Then I put them through a coffee grinder and sieve to make a fine powder that is lime green and smells very pungent. Then you have a choice before you: consume all of it or "microdose" - I'd recommend starting with 2 table spoons, maybe 4 if the effects are not coming on within 2 hours. Going the low dose way works extremely well for me - no vomiting/purging, my body accepts it fully. At this dosage things become extremely slowed down, as an example, 4 spoons strips time away for me and I feel like an immortal monk, ultra zen mode. Its cool to have small musical instruments around if you have any (flutes, bells, humming bowls, kalimba, ocarina, jews harp etc) and play with them even you don't know how to play them.

It is important to fast the day before so you take it on a clean body. Also try to be in nature, between plants - the smallest details and colours of plants, insects & flowers can put you down a very nice rabbit hole of feeling wholesome and thankful for being shown the beauty of nature... etc. I'd recommend taking it 05:00 in the morning if you have summer time. Have some fresh fruit available to eat around 14:00 - it is the best thing on earth, you will be able to taste the "essence" of each fruit and its super juicy and chewy. You will understand that all fruits/seeds want to be eaten, to propagate and spread and that realization might make you cry with how humbling the plants struggle is to survive.

I personally haven't had a full San Pedro dose yet since I'm too afraid to be honest. But a low dose of the dried stuff is amazing. No bad come down either. I'd also recommend growing them yourself and taking care of them (advice from the shaman) instead of buying them from a stranger - take care of them and they will take care of you. I currently have 6 of them and 4 new pups just appeared.

Word of caution: I've seen a person who has abused this plant to escape reality. He had a plantation in his backyard and when I met him, his brain was completely fried while being sober. Very slow to respond, droopy face etc. If you go down this path, please do respect the plants and their power over our brains and also be aware of the very thin line between reality/normality and insanity/psychosis.

Anyways, I hope you have a good journey and find all of the goodness hiding away in your heart. Its all there, more than you can imagine.

Worth noting the dose amounts vary wildly with the mushrooms and batches. The stuff I have (grown by a friend) would barely do anything for you at 2g. 3g was really the minimum, and 4g if you wanted anything other than feeling happy and high.

I've been lucky that I've been getting consistent potency (I think the online shop I buy from has had the same grower all this time). But other people have told me they've struggled with inconsistent potency. Super valid warning for others, thank you.

Forgive me - what is San Pedro?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychoactive_cactus

Cactus containing Mescaline. Interesting compound. Also found in peyote. San Pedro grows everywhere and you've probably seen it around. Another one to look for is Peruvian Torch.

Peyote grows extremely slow and only in small corners of the world, I'd recommend skipping them as they need to be protected.

San Pedro grows about 40cm a year where I live. They can take plenty of water (growing thin and long) or they can get by with a cup a month (growing shorter and thicker). I'd recommend starving them once in a while to stress them out - this makes them produce mescaline. They also produce wonderful huge white flowers (only for a short time each year). If you do end up growing them, never sell them. Always give cuttings away as gifts to others.

Read up a bit about mescaline, it is not like the other psychedelics. With mushrooms, dmt, lsd + lsa (seed from Argyreia nervosa - plenty gardens have them) - these are all similar compounds with similar effects. Mescaline's effects are a bit different, so worth it to explore even if you think you've seen it all.

Fun fact: Mescaline is mentioned in The Matrix (the first one) when Neo encounters the girl with the white rabbit tattoo...make of it what you will.

The number of people that I read/told me they read this book and go on to shaman trips and source material is staggering.

I never really knew it was that hard to find/source said items. They aren't marketed publicly, but if you're in the right community they're available, usually for free.

Psychedelics have a powerful community online from numerous forums, to websites such as Erowid and Psychonauts, which have their own discords. You can also find like minded people on meetup, or facebook groups.

Or, what all the cool kids do - music festivals and camping.

Is the shaman really that necessary? AS for doing it again, more and more psychdelics and chemicals with neuro effects are being legalized such as Ketamine IV treatment.

There's also a whole semi famous association with it, MAPS.org, which has been increasing in membership, and governance creation and paid studies that show that psychedelics time and time again have a positive role in society.

Then again, maybe Shaman isn't so different from a Doctor or N.P.

Just curious information, ever since Barnes & Noble highlisted this book when published, it really took off and this small world now seems to be mainstream.

Honestly, as with any drugs, if you just know anyone who dabbles , you can get them easily.

I don't like drugs personally, but my closest social group has always been heavy drug users during my teens and early twenties (dealing with them is probably why I don't like drugs myself). I've always known where to go get stuff even though I don't partake in that lifestyle myself.

Now when I describe that time in my life to my wife and more straight laced friends, they're surprised because they assume finding drugs or a "shaman" is difficult, or part of some seedy underbelly of society with crimelords etc... But really it's no different than knowing someone who is into any other niche.

Also the idea of a shaman eludes me. Most "shamans" I've met are hucksters. They basically serve the purpose of guiding you in a trip, being a hype person and (assuming an experienced one) knowing how to deal with any issues that arise.

A "shaman" can just as easily be replaced by a good friend at home. Most people just do it for the experience IMHO, but there's nothing special about one.

> Or, what all the cool kids do - music festivals and camping.

Taking 1 gram of cubensis and taking 5 grams will not have the same effect.

Traditionally, strong psychedelic doses tend to be administered for therapeutic/spiritual journeys. It's preferable that it would be in the presence of someone who's truly knowledgeable about that process (shaman, guide, therapist, etc). It's true in practically any culture, whether in Africa, in the Americas, or elsewhere. And there are reasons why it is so, which is all explained in those books and papers.

Thanks for sharing this. I too had a difficult childhood (doesn't everyone?) and I have struggled with depression and debilitating anxiety.

12 years ago I started meditation, and after 10 years of seemingly nothing happening I began to get it. It's been 2 years and the depression/anxiety are just like shadows that are still there but do not affect me.

I am very curious about psychedelics, but afraid to ruin all the work I put in ... But what if it helps me even more! :)

Not sure what to do, but thanks again for posting your experience. It helps. Peace and Love to you brother.

PS: I meditate 2 to 3 hours a day. It took me 5 years just to get a regular habit, then 5 more to get to an hour. After that things seem to go quickly.

Thanks for your sincere reply. I appreciate your honesty in sharing what you’re going through. I am impressed with your meditation habit. Being able to understand the quality of your own mind in that way is something that most people will never achieve in their entire lifetime.

Best wishes you to you too, and for a positive 2022.

The most important part of this book is the thoughtful explanation and deep dive into psychedelics. Sure you might come away with "I should try this", but it explains how and why these drugs (*medicines) should be used, especially the potential downsides and adverse effects.

I had a similar reaction after reading this book. I spent a good part of 2020 and 2021 in a deep dive of learning about psychedelic culture, science, and cultivation/synthesis. Regardless of how the science relating to mental health develops, I think these substances are crucial tools of personal exploration and should me more widely (and responsibly) used.

My favorite analogy used for psychedelics is a "microscope for the mind". In other words they aren't a panacea.

Did the mushroom trip enlighten you? Did it change how you view the world? Were you worried about a bad trip?

It changed how I see myself. I think I'm more honest and more compassionate with myself. I wasn't really worried about a bad trip, my life has been difficult enough at times that I felt I had little to lose. Few stable relationships, no family, no kids. But that's very specific to me.

> Were you worried about a bad trip?

I feel like people need to start talking about bad trips in a more helpful and realistic way. The info I got about put me off to tripping for years. I avoided them until my late 20s, wish i did them sooner.

I think bad trips are mostly just people who mix psychedelics with other drugs (weed is common) and freak out or aren't used to introspection (so is this really bad then?) or use irresponsibly. Like if you take 15 shots of vodka you're going to have a bad time, why is lsd any different? Or if you drink with assholes that ruin your night out why would you trip with them?

> I think bad trips are mostly just people who mix psychedelics with other drugs (weed is common) and freak out or aren't used to introspection (so is this really bad then?) or use irresponsibly.

Respectfully: this is dangerous speculation. You can have a bad trip even if you do everything right, and it’s an important risk that we should highlight rather than minimize.

I believe that many psychedelic experiences are net positive, but some can be very negative for a very long time.

Your post is basically my problem with how people talk about bad trips. You made the term "bad trip" ambiguous, scary and sound random. You're saying something might happen but no one can tell you what. Yeah that's horrifying, what is this horrible thing, Ill let my imagination run wild.

But if you can be clear about the risks and how to avoid them I think you'll come out fine. I don't think if psychedelics were playing some game of russian roulette like you suggest they would actually be useful in therapy.

I think you're entirely too dismissive of other people here, ironic for a thread on "How to change your mind"

I've had to calm people down off of bad trips. Unlike what you say, it's something that totally happens with single drugs and non hallucinogenics. Hell you can have a bad trip on alcohol.

It's all about the state of mind, and having an altered state of mind can make it much easier to start spiraling. This can happen even if you haven't taken drugs too, let's say from stress or lack of sleep. Again it's just about your mind being in a state it's uncomfortable with.

Specifically I've had friends on weed who've had anxiety attacks and deep paranoia till I calmed them down. They were completely non functional in the same way someone having a sober anxiety/panic attack would be.

I've had to help people on just E at parties who've started hyper ventilating and started having stressed delusional visions.

That's not even getting into being there for someone who's on psychedelics, where I've had friends who've suffered fairly longer lasting bouts of out of body syndrome, even after the drugs wore off because of how it affected their perception of self.

Drugs aren't the cause of a bad trip. They just increase the chances of one, and for many psychedelics, you therefore want to make sure you're in a calm, happy place. If someone is trying it for the first time, do it around people who will look out for you, and preferably those who can responsibly look after you if things do go sour.

Maybe I can give an anecdotal example that is less ambiguous. I have a fair amount of experience with psychedelics. I have had both uncomfortable trips and once what I would characterize as an actual bad trip. In the case of the bad trip it was a normal dosage, less than 2 grams of mushrooms (cubensis), and wasn't mixed with anything else. In terms of effects I would describe it as feeling like you are losing your mind, and you will never be yourself again. I imagined, in an extremely vivid and negative way, how I would be judged - by my friends, parents, society for what was happening in my head. How I would be pitied. For lack of a better word, I understood what it was to be "insane" and I knew I would never be sane again. I was unable to answer basic questions - completely unable to function (I could still speak but was highly confused). Fortunately I had friends who took care of me, changed my setting, and I came out of it after an hour or two finishing the trip feeling fine.

Psychedelics amplify your current emotions. If you feel love for the world you'll feel that 10x or 100x. If you have a panic attack, then it's the same amplification. You are correct that mixing and overdoing it are great ways to cause panic and bring on a bad trip - but bad trips really can happen if your set and setting is off. This is why people talk so much about being careful with set and setting - it is the most effective way to not play Russian roulette as you say. This is why in therapy there is always a guide - it is always in a calm place, and a therapist isn't going to recommend it for you if they see you're in the wrong mindset. But even then its not as if set and setting can somehow be measured to ensure the trip is good.

As negative as the experience was, in some ways I am glad I had it, because it gave me a much deeper understanding of where my mind could go - both positive and negative.

> Psychedelics amplify your current emotions.

so true. Even weed does this to an extent. if you're comfortable within yourself you'll have the time of your life but if you're not in the right head-space, or have fear of the drug (or fear a bad trip) you'll likely have a bad trip. Even so I think it's possible to steer yourself out of it with some practice of mental exercises (while sober)

With psychedelics it helps to have experience with lower dosage or even a weaker drug (weed) where you learn how to escape "a paranoia" and steer yourself to "happier thoughts".

When I was young I've seen one of my exes, who was a cop in Singapore, have a horror trip on weed in Thailand. She really wanted to smoke but never tried anything other than alcohol and her environment was also exactly what one would expect from a cop in SG. It was a nightmare for both of us. She even wanted to try it a second time a few days later and experienced a weaker paranoia as the first time (still not a happy time). It led me to the hypothesis that she'd need many such sessions over a longer time where she could re-integrate these experiences and also that she didn't get addicted into her worldview. The amount of brainwashing she went through from her society about what drugs do and how weed will make you switch to heroin and rob banks etc ... if she was ever going to feel great on weed it wouldn't be just a few times trying. (we never smoked after the second time because why on Earth would she when it only made her feel terrible).

My brother was in an even more extreme situation doing shrooms in Sumatra with his then gf. She never wanted to take anything (other than booze) but then decided to do shrooms with him after getting very drunk (I think he also talked her into it and she might have just said yes so she could have a bad trip in order to tell him "I told you so" ... at least that's the person she was). As predicted she had the ultimate horror trip, with visuals similar in to what got peddled by anti-drug propaganda in the 70ies. A zombie or elephant face stares back from the mirror, ants and spiders all over the ceiling ready to drop on them, walls closing in, etc ... By brother panicked and suggested the only thing he knew: "smoke yourself down from a bad trip", and proceeded to "roll one" for them. She hated the idea of adding another drug on top of the first drug, because she never took anything until then (and clearly this meant that by the time she was sober she would be a junky craving crack. The idea of another drug "as cure for a bad trip for the first drug" was an outrage for her.

She eventually did agree to smoke because the visuals were so horrific. From his account of the story it did make her better. But she would never admit it when they brought it up even years later. What she remembered was both drugs had caused her major distress. She used these experience to harden her believe further that drugs are always bad 100% of the time, and there can not be any medical value for anyone. (oddly she was so psychotic and manipulative, and never learned how to communicate without resorting to drama. In hindsight it's sad because drugs could have shown her that real self so she could address these issues).

What both stories taught me is never talk anyone into taking drugs or be too quick with "offering guidance" based on my own experience. Secondly be there for them to say no, when they're drunk and ask to go "score some weed" because they're on vacation and drunk enough to try (they can still do so the next day and then turn it into a proper event/memory).

Setting and preparation is key to get something out of it. if the people you surround yourself with aren't sensitive to your feelings you're better off doing it alone or not at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Teachings_of_Don_Juan <-- I really enjoyed this (because it puts so much emphasis on preparation and respect (in yourself _and_ the drug).

> As negative as the experience was, in some ways I am glad I had it, because it gave me a much deeper understanding of where my mind could go - both positive and negative.

So is it still appropriate to consider this a “bad” trip? It’s a serious question; psychedelics are experiencing a resurgence in clinical interest precisely because of their persistent effects, quite apart from the acute trip experience itself. One might assume that a trip saturated in negative affect might leave a person worse off than before, but it is clearly more complex than that. Perhaps it is akin to the difference between post-traumatic stress vs. growth, and proper management of set/setting/aftercare can promote the latter over the former.

You raise an interesting point and perhaps it is both. I think it’s possible to experience negative or awful things and still grow - silver linings and all that. Does that make it good though? A much more serious example could be someone that survives cancer and now has a new found appreciation for life. I’m not sure that makes it “good” even though there were some positive outcomes. The difference of course is that I was never in any danger - though in the experience I certainly didn’t know that.

I am unsure about persistent long term negative outcomes from psychedelics - you bough I know several people that tried them once, had a rough experience and never touched them again.

You wouldn't classify that as something like an uncomfortable introspection? I think if in general people were more clear about what the psychedelic experience is you wouldn't be caught off guard like that.

> you are losing your mind, and you will never be yourself again.

I feel like is a pretty common thing to come up, especially with lsd which lasts forever. If people were more prepared for what will come up (I actually tell people about that scenario if tripping for the first time comes up). Thats what i mean, is it better to say "oh the trip can go bad for any unpredictable reason" or we talk about in more clear terms then "bad trip" about what can actually be uncomfortable while on the drugs.

I think saying "you might feel like your losing your mind, but your not, youll feel better at the end" is less horrifying then "bad trips"

I would say it was too chaotic to be introspective (I realize I cited an example of my train if thought but this was not the norm).

I see your point about preparation and it’s valid however hearing someone else talk about what it’s like really can’t prepare you. I knew bad trips were possible and had read extensively about set and setting. But in the moment there was no reason or logic. I forgot everything I knew about managing the experience. It was completely overwhelming and in that situation there is very little you can do.

In many ways it’s like the psychedelic experience overall. You can read about and be as prepared as possible but the experience is so otherworldly there is no way to fully understand that it’s like unless you go through the experience.

> Were you worried about a bad trip?

Many therapists and scientists have documented their personal experience guiding hundreds, sometimes thousands of trips with strong psychedelic doses (e.g. 20mg+ synthetic psilocybin, 200mcg+ lsd). They've written entire chapters on bad trips in the context of specifically psychedelics, what are their cause, how to avoid them, and how to handle them when they occur. Research papers, books, articles, etc. It's all in there. Sometimes, even reading just a single chapter from a single book is enough (James Fadiman's The Psychedelic Explorer's Guide is quite accessible. https://tripsafe.org/ also offers good advice)

Acquiring that knowledge requires to actually sit down and read the stuff. Sadly, what we have around us is people usually just spewing anecdotes and opinions.

If you're considering taking the journey, do yourself a favor and research the topic a bit before. You might be surprised at the amount of misinformation that's out there (and in these very threads).

What kind of shaman and how did you find them?

I live in the US and there are some places here where it’s now decriminalized.

As to shamen part, I do recommend reading the book. There’s a lot on “set and setting” which goes into this.

I'm in Cape Town, a shaman visits two or three times a year. Currently costs around ~$400 for a 3-day retreat, excluding accommodation.

Just for interest sake, my medical aid has paid around $2000 dollars worth of mental healthcare bills in total over three years (it's a lot for my country, but a fraction for Americans). I'd say the value/progress received from the mental health route has been utterly slow where a handful of mushrooms has had the best effects of my life. Going the shaman/Aya route is like pouring paint stripper on your soul, where you can then have a peek at your inner workings - its is not for the faint of heart. I do not regret doing it but I also advocate caution. You cannot unsee/unfeel the things you experience, some of it is positive and some might be negative.

So yeah, all round worth it to do it via a shaman. Especially if you have tried normal mental health care and you aren't making progress. I feel all adults should do it as a rite of passage of sorts, especially anyone in positions of power.

It's just sad that I am in a country where drugs are illegal and we are in a pandemic where travel is hard.

I bet that the breath and cold water are still legal:) Do not give up!

I had a similar experience with ayahuasca. It removed some traumas that were blocking my self awareness and in some way growth. This helped me in my personal and professional life. I recommend it but should be taken with caution and in a security manner

https://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Masters-Setting-Straight-America...

How long has it been since you did it? Have the effects waned?

It’s been around four months since I did it.

It’s hard to describe the effects. It’s unlike taking a medicine. I’ve heard analogies such as pouring concrete into your foundation, or shuffling your mental deck of cards. Neither of those quite describe it.

One concrete effect was that I stopped wearing a smart watch. After the journey I just realized I didn’t want it. I stopped having a need to see notifications immediately.

More abstractly: “revisiting” the worst of my childhood as an adult was moving and full of pent-up grief. I blame myself a lot less for who I ended up becoming as person.

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