> a Wumao
For reference, the initial W doesn't represent a sound, so this would be "an wumao". (Same for Wuhan.)
For reference, the initial W doesn't represent a sound, so this would be "an wumao". (Same for Wuhan.)
The more I think about this, the less I understand what you were trying to say.
The first problem is of course that a(n) is an English word. But more than that, every sentence of English must apply the rules of English to every part of itself. If instead of "scare" we used the Chinese loanword xia, we would say things like "you xiaed me". We would not say "you xia me" with the past tense present but unmarked, nor would we say "you xiale me".
But it is undefined. English doesn't have strong dialects like Chinese does. Southerners are more likely not to pronounce the "w" in wu, so they might say "an wugui" (since they are more likely to say oogway like in Kungfu Panda) while a northerner will say "a wugui", since they are more familiar with saying the w sound. This is only if they are very familiar with English also, otherwise they will completely ignore the distinction between a and an.
So...dialects make the question hard to answer.
The second part is a more interesting claim. But broadly speaking, for any two Chinese dialects you could probably identify two languages, one being a variety of English, that stand at a similar distance from each other. The second language might or might not be called "English"; it might be called Scots, or Dutch.
Whether to pronounce a(n) with the /n/ realized is not undefined, but it is specific to the speaker. This is a case where variation within languages named "English" is more than enough to show disparities, as witness the confused Americans who copy the phrase "an historic occasion" from British usage.
I took the position, in my original comment, that I was responding to someone who didn't speak Chinese (and therefore didn't know how to pronounce "wumao") but did speak English (and therefore did know how to pronounce "an"). I didn't think I was speaking to someone who knew the pronunciation of "wumao" but wasn't sure how to use an article with it.
I don't think regional variation in pronunciation in China can explain an English speaker pronouncing wumao or Wuhan with an initial w-. The citation form of the syllable has no initial consonant, and all sources are explicit about this. Chinese broadcast media, in running speech, still doesn't produce anything an English speaker would recognize as an initial w-. (I'm having to rely, for this claim, on the television programs I found on youtube, linked elsewhere.) There just isn't a source that would provide an English speaker outside China with an example of using w-. So I assume what's happening is that people pronounce w- because they see the spelling.
(Also, I don't see many English speakers pronouncing it Taivan instead of Taiwan.)
I find it very plausible that regional variation exists, though, because I know the Shanghainese (吴 dialect) pronunciation of 勿 is -- using a pinyin-like spelling -- "ve" with an initial /v/-like sound.
> The form an is used before words starting with a vowel sound, regardless of whether the word begins with a vowel letter. This avoids the glottal stop (momentary silent pause) that would otherwise be required between a and a following vowel sound. Where the next word begins with a consonant sound, a is used. Examples: a box; an apple; an SSO (pronounced "es-es-oh"); an MP3 (pronounced "em-pee-three"); a HEPA filter (here, HEPA is an acronym, a series of letters pronounced as a word rather than as individual letters); an hour (the h is silent); a one-armed bandit (pronounced "won..."); an heir (pronounced "air"); an herb in American English (where the h is silent), but a herb in British English; "a unionized worker" but "an ionized particle".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_articles#Distinction_b...
For example, "womb" starts with the same sound as "wumao", but we say "a womb" instead of "an womb". For the same reason, we say "a wumao" instead of "an wumao".
Yes, that's what I'm saying.
> For example, "womb" starts with the same sound as "wumao"
No, it doesn't. "Oops" starts with the same sound as "wumao". "Womb" has a /w/ sound before that. There is no /w/ in 五毛.
What did you think I meant by saying "the initial W doesn't represent a sound"?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2eLP3FuuEVs
I think there is a lot of irony in this subthread, since it is responding to a comment about derailing the discussion by distracting from the main topic as a strategy: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29655271. Intentional or not, this subthread shows just how effective this strategy can be.
Edit: another poster has some more examples of there not being a "w" sound at all in "wu": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29657822
Yes there is. You can argue it's not as strong as an English 'w', but it's there.
> This is a really common misconception/mispronunciation caused by pinyin as it needs the "w" for disambiguation purposes (see also the use of apostrophes, xian vs. xi'an).
That may have been the case in the past, but the 'w' is definitely pronounced now, just like all the other 'w' sounds in Pinyin.
Maybe some regional accents overemphasize a W sound? I've never heard one, though.
I think it does vary by region. At any rate, I don't think anybody is confused by it.
I'm curious how you think a video with an edited audio track could have any value as evidence. If you're willing to truncate and splice your recorded audio, you can easily transmute some sounds into other sounds.
> I think there is a lot of irony in this subthread
Yes, we talk about the things we think are interesting, often even when there are other people whose opinions differ.
Compare "han wudi de muzang" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9TeG6MdbmY#t=117
Or "wuhan de yi tian" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWw6emkxmos#t=82
Or "yi zuo shi da wuhan" here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWw6emkxmos#t=66 (same video as above, earlier timestamp)
Additionally, English spelling rules are complete insanity, and if an English speaker sees "uhan" they'd probably pronounce the 'u' as [ju:].
Pinyin w + ang is ∅ + uang. Either way there's a w sound in there.
Correct.
> Wuhan starts with the same (or at least something very similar and indistinguishable to me) semivowel as the English word west.
Nope. This one is ∅ + u.
You can listen to the name of Wuhan here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cWw6emkxmos#t=82
No?
> Don't 我 and 武 start with the same sound?
You could make that argument. But 武 never transitions out of it. That transition is how you get a glide (or semivowel) as opposed to a vowel. 我 is /wo/, with a brief /w/. 武 is /u/, and that vowel persists through the entire syllable. If you wanted to call it /w/ instead of /u/, you'd have a syllable with an onset and no rime, and your /w/ would last much too long to be called a semivowel.
> Do 窝 and 喔 sound the same to you?
I can't really speak to this, but I'll assume by 喔 you mean something that is like 窝 without the w- onset. Something like 哦?
They don't sound the same. This actually raises an interesting question...
> I know how Wuhan sounds like and I clearly hear a w sound in there
Am I right that you're a native Mandarin speaker? Mandarin doesn't distinguish between /wu/ and /u/, or at least no minimal pair exists that would prove the distinction is drawn. (Granted, the sequence /wu/ is not at all common in English, but we do have a minimal pair -- woo / ooh -- as long as you're willing to accept "ooh" as a word.) The lack of a distinction in Mandarin leaves the judgment of a Mandarin speaker open to question.
seanmcdirmid mentioned 服务 - do you also clearly hear a W sound there?
No I'm not. Are you? I'm open to the idea that I'm mislead by pinyin, but I really cannot unhear the w sound there. How do you pronounce Wuhan? Do you start with you lips closed or can you do it with your mouth open?
> seanmcdirmid mentioned 服务 - do you also clearly hear a W sound there?
Not really, but syllables changing depending on what comes before (or after them) is fairly normal.
I don't understand this question. The only sounds you can make by closing your lips are P, B, and M.