"I've got an idea for an app" | Hacker News Reader

"I've got an idea for an app"

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299 pointschriseidhof142 comments

10 years or so ago, when I was a game programmer, I used to have the same "I've got an idea for a game" problems.

Most ideas were useless, some were poorly thought out "Like X but Y", for example "Like Command and Conquer but set in space"; others were far too difficult to construct.

Then, I was told an idea for a great puzzle game. I decided the idea was so great I made the originator of the idea my wife ;)

Is she comfortable with the fact that it was primarily an IP acquisition?

I don't normally up-vote amusing comments but I really could not resist for this one. The most amusing comment I have read on hacker news so far and the only to really make me smile today. Thank you!

Thanks... I don't submit many longer posts since I've limited myself to checking news sites from my phone (for productivity reasons). So this one-liner generated about six months of Karma for me :)

I'd class this as a talent acquisition, the IP was obviously secondary.

Limiting the scope of your idea helps a lot with execution. Kenta Cho blows me away with the crazy number of games he releases. He releases a new one every few days! [1] But if you look at his source code, it's very short and about 90% of it is reused each time.

1. http://wonderfl.net/user/ABA/codes

The tower building game mechanic in World of Goo was the result of a similar rapid-prototyping exercise. Braid started out as a quick prototype, too. Having lots of ideas isn't bad; you just need a way to spew things into a playable state quickly so you can filter out the chaff.

This talk by Jonathan Blow (author of Braid) has totally changed how I think about writing games, and certainly since I listened to it I've got much closer to finishing any of my personal projects than I have in years, hopefully will release something soon (I believe that games are one of the few areas where 'release quick, release often' is a bad idea, although I seem to be getting proved wrong by minecraft).

http://the-witness.net/news/2011/06/how-to-program-independe...

Minecraft is one of those games which is, first and foremost, a bucket of legos.

Which game was that?

Was it successful?

It had a slight iPhone success. ~5,000 copies, never got very much publicity despite an average review of about 4.5, now taken down I'm afraid.

I'm currently playing around doing a HTML (DOM, not 5) version. Unfortunately I don't have as much time as I'd like to play with such things on the side. Everyone who has played it agrees it's fun.

Why be so vague about which game it is?

"Like Command and Conquer but set in space"

You mean Star Craft?

>Like Command and Conquer but set in space

Yeah, that kind of game could never become popular, right? ;)

So let's say I take the author's advice, 'always listen to ideas', and unlike the author, get told an awesome idea by a friend-of-a-friend with zero ability to execute.

Great, now what?

Do I really set up a working relationship with this person, who's likely dead weight and valueless now that the idea's been revealed? Do I give him the ownership he thinks he deserves, which is a 50-50 split if I'm lucky? Do I just build it myself?

I prefer to avoid such ethical quandaries, which is why I stick to my own ideas.

Exactly. The other day I was hanging out with some relatives from out of town and my uncle dropped that famous line, "I have an idea for an app." I had been functioning under the same notion that I should always listen to people's ideas, so I listened.

He then says, "I'll tell you, but if you build it I want 50%." I said, "Fine." In my mind I'm thinking, "No way I'm building this." Then he says, "OK, my idea is a contact management application for the iPhone. They have them for the PC, but they don't have them for the iPhone." That's it. That's his whole idea.

That's when I realized I should stop listening to people's ideas about apps because he just basically told me that I can't build any contact management apps without giving him half the profits. If I listen to too many people's ideas, I won't be able to build something without being sued because someone else "gave me the idea".

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you should worry about one-time, private, un-recorded verbal agreements.

That might be true in the legal sense, but presumably he wants to maintain a good relationship with his uncle. :-)

Was your relative asking for a percentage stake in the company or a percentage of the profits? In either case, what I would tell him is that his percentage will be in rough proportion to his overall contribution to the project. Lots of ideas are needed to design, create, market and sell an app. Why should his one idea be favored above the others? At best, one could weigh his idea in proportion to its usefulness toward the end-product. He thinks he contributed 50% to the end product but why that number? Why not 10%? In any case, I don't think he should be paid anything until you recoup your fixed development costs. What if the idea doesn't pan out? It seems to me that he wants the risk-free part of supplying the ideas but wants you to go through the trouble and expense of building it. Did he offer to pay you anything for the trouble? I think most people would love to spend their days just dreaming up ideas and getting paid for other people implementing them. Indeed, this is my big problem with software patents and patent trolls in particular.

You fell down when he started talking about ownership split and you continued the conversation. At that point, I would decline politely to continue the line of discussion.

If the idea is solid and fleshed out (bonus: On paper) and not just a one-liner like "it's My____ but for Chilean expats in Micronesia", then they deserve more than just "build it myself and then Winklevoss them".

Maybe they can do balsamiq mocks of the interface, can run the incorporation/LLC paperwork gauntlet (if it's more than just an app), do beta testing, buy devices to test on, pay you a "solidarity" stipend, research, marketing, wrangle a QA or translation staff on Mechanical Turk.

No one ever has "zero ability to execute". It can't just be about the coding.

I think there are plenty of people with less than zero ability to execute, i.e. a net negative contribution.

How are they "less than zero" if they gave you an idea that a) you would've never thought of yourself in any amount of brainstorming or b) was so insanely great that you jumped at the chance to actually do it.

Would people who are passionate enough to really think things through with their idea contribute less than zero? I'm not talking about the fictional coked-out, fast talking movie exec with logline "business plans" that want 60% + a seat on the board. If you're talking with that kind of person, then of course you don't take it on.

It's really easy to contribute negatively to a project. On the business end, I've worked with people who changed priority/direction/feature-sets so frequently that they actually made things worse; the project would have been better without them, hence a negative contribution.

On the technical side, have you never worked with a programmer that insisted on introducing his favorite framework/language, or declared that the "current code sucks, it needs to be re-written"? That's potentially a negative contribution. Hell I've even been that guy. It's not only possible, it's common.

In my experience, rewriting code almost always ends up a net positive.

I think the negative influence is usually more in line of those who resist change such that so much cruft accumulates, that it truly becomes too dangerous to change anything.

Sure, but if the person actually had the idea that created the entire venture, it can't really be negative unless their influence runs it to the ground and puts the company in debt, I guess.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

The vast majority of people who are aware of a single great idea probably either heard it from some other party or just got incredibly lucky. People who can consistently come up with good ideas are a tiny minority compared to the amount of people who are aware of a good idea.

"No, no. It needs a flash intro with music and dancing!"

Yes, in a perfect world they could contribute those things but the chances of that being so are just too unlikely. If they could afford/justify any financial contribution, they'd probably just pay you to build it for them and have complete ownership.

If you have a bit of a track record, you will get people looking to partner with you and coast on your experience - in 99% of cases, it won't be enough to carry their part of the bargain or even be anything but a distraction or pressure.

Then there's the issue of feeling like you must persist with an idea you've lost faith in because they're still keen. Maybe you have countless other ideas to push that should be a greater priority, while this is their only bun in the oven.

This is why movie studios explicitly say they won't read your scripts and film suggestions if you send one in. They want to be able to make a film without the danger of being sued for stealing ideas.

Yes, I think this is also the practice at game companies like Mattel and Hasbro.

See the following excerpt from Mattel Website TOS at http://service.mattel.com/us/tandc.asp:

As the world's largest toy company, Mattel employs a large staff of designers to develop new ideas....

Because of this... Mattel does not accept or consider any unsolicited ideas or materials for products or services, or even improvements to products or services, such as ideas, concepts, inventions, or designs for toys, games, videogames, books, scripts, screenplays..... Therefore, you must not send to Mattel.... any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials. Any Unsolicited Ideas and Materials you post on or send ... will be treated as non-confidential and non-proprietary User-Generated Content – regardless of whether you mark them "confidential", "proprietary", or the like.

Mattel finds that many submissions that it receives... are already in the public domain; or are identical or substantially similar to products developed or in development by our own staff; or, for a host of many other reasons, are not novel or unique. So if, you send us any of your Unsolicited Ideas and Materials despite our request that you not do so, it's likely they're identical or substantially similar to ideas, concepts, and materials that, in the past, were developed by our staff or submitted to us by others.

Most (all?) video game developers do the same: A disclosure that says "we have LOTS of ideas already, and your ideas may be similar, so we can't agree not to create anything that includes your ideas."

I'm uncomfortable when people want to volunteer their ideas to me for exactly that reason. There's also usually an implicit question: how much will it cost you to build this for me?

Rather than hearing someone's idea for an app I'd much prefer to hear about an existing, unsolved problem that they have. You know, an actual problem worth solving. Those tend to be the more fruitful variety of ideas, IMHO.

I had this friend who called up to talk about an idea. I listened for about 20-30 mins, made what i thought were meaningful questions, then asked him, i have an idea too and if he wants to listen? He said, he'll call back in an hour and was gone. I guess, he wanted me to execute the idea:-). Btw, am working on implementing that idea of mine, only it's going slower than i would like it to.

You explain the situation to them, and ask them if they'd be ok with 5% for the idea, expanding to more if they take an active role and actually help execute the idea. If they're not OK with that, explain that it just isn't worth it to you.

Ideas are a dime a dozen, it's not like that's the one and only Great Idea out there and it's certainly not worth ruining a friendship over.

How would you actually go about giving them 5%? It seems very complicated. Presumably it's after Apple's cut. There are also expenses. Is it a handshake deal? Is there a legal document? Is it 5% for all time? What about tax considerations since the government may think you got 100%, instead of just 95%?

You can use something like http://foundrs.com/home just to lay down a basic agreement and work out the details later.

Right. This friend can (and does) execute.

Sorry about that - changing 'just like' to 'unlike'.

Do you only listen to ideas from people that can execute? What would you do if you got an awesome idea from someone who couldn't?

"Do I really set up a working relationship with this person, who's likely dead weight and valueless now that the idea's been revealed? Do I give him the ownership he thinks he deserves, which is a 50-50 split if I'm lucky? Do I just build it myself?"

This is pretty much the plot of the Social Network.

I've found that the fastest way to get people to stop telling you their ideas (that they want you to build), is start telling them exactly how THEY could accomplish it.

Them: "I've got this awesome idea for software that tracks traffic jams!"

Me: "Sure, you just need to link up existing maps and satellite imagery from Google to traffic cameras...."

Them: "Uh..."

Me: "Of course, you have to be able to monetize the massive amount of data you'll be moving around, so you need to consider how people will be accessing this? Would it be through a GPS device, or is it a smartphone app, or is this just for commercial (TV stations, police, DOT) applications?"

Them: "Uh...I also had an idea for this other thing..."

You're right, this will be a fast way to get people to stop telling you their ideas. But if you're trying to shut people up then you've missed the OP's point.

You can easily make normal people feel like their idea is worthless and you have mountains of business acumen that, obviously, they must lack. Do this enough times and what you'll find, just like you'd hoped, people stop telling you their ideas.

I'd argue that every time you do this you are shutting down opportunities to collaboratively create ideas that would probably work. Part of being "lucky" is increasing your exposure to failures [1].

When someone approaches you with an idea, you've certainly got a better feel for what will "work" more than you're average person. Consider taking the time to give feedback, help shape it, brainstorm with it. You might find that between the two of you what you create is bigger than what either one could come up with individually.

This applies in all areas of personal relationships, not just iPhone games.

[1] "To increase your chance of success, double your failure rate" - attributed to Tom Watson

My point isn't to "shut people up". If it was, that's what I would have written.

My point is to get people out of the mindset of "if I could someone ELSE to do all of the hard work, I'd be a gazillionaire."

My approach is to tell YOU how to seize the opportunity and get your idea rolling; I'm far too busy to do all of the work for you so you can retire rich, but I will gladly point you in a great direction and lay out your next steps. The reality is that you won't do it once you realize that YOU will actually have to do the grunt work.

To be fair, you wrote "the fastest way to get people to stop telling you their ideas" which sounds a lot like shutting people up.

To be fair, directly after the snippet you quoted, he had written "that they want you to build".

To be fair, again, if that was what I meant, that's what I would have written.

This could work :) I usually say, let's search the app store for your idea ... Just to see what comes up.

12 pages of the same idea later...

Moving on to other conversations.

Thats a great suggestion, I usually listens for some time and ask a few from my point of view meaningful questions. I usually finish off by asking them to send me an email and summarize their thoughts and to explain it in more detail.

Most of the times, the email never lands in my inbox, but when it finally does, theres usually something to it.

I've had that experience myself. Not only the same ideas pop up, but literally the exact same app name I had in mind.

I've found it just as effective to start giving them the resources to make their apps. Offer to lend them books and point them towards tutorials.

Nobody ever wants my books.

this is brilliant! in fact I used this technique out of instinct a couple of times (including with my father, who is an avid web app idea maker, lol!).

I know this is not directly related but being a web developer I generally get something similar. I get the old "Oh we should meet up sometime, my brother is looking for a website". And they think they are doing me a favour when they offer me £100 to do them a site.

To quote one, "I'll bung you £100 to do it".

Thanks, I get paid that a day.

And as a bonus, you get to be on the hook for maintaining that site until the owner gets bored with it, making whatever changes they want (for free).

I think people always expect you to be on a learning curve when creating sites, like they think they are doing you a favour by you building it for them as it's good experience for you.

I don't know what it is with jobs where it is more of a service than labour but I feel we all get a bum rap, it's the same with SEO, I think people think it hardly takes any time at all. If I asked my friend, who is a joiner, to do some work for me, I can see the work being done and I can appreciate the time and effort gone into it, it's almost like people cannot appreciate the time projects take us.

Don't get me wrong, I have put sites together in 16 hours from scratch but they are basic sites and I don't want to maintain them. They have been favour jobs or such like, it's not how I plan spending the rest of my life.

I think the one thing I take from this story is that all people think their idea is unique or will always work. 99% of the time, the people have done no research into competition or if they have they have not evaluated the competition well enough. It's good when you do get a good idea but this does again come down to the execution, you have to be able to rely on your partner to do their fair share.

Yup, this has happened to me several times back in high school, when all the shitty bands used to approach me asking to make a website. At first I was like "yeah, cool!" and then they automatically expected me to update it consistently and do things like handle merchandise sales. LOL. Yeah right. Then they get mad at me for not maintaining it. I'm like "I made the thing, you update it".

That was my lesson. I don't make websites anymore for people without charging thousands of dollars and an hourly fee for any future work.

I think every programmer in some respects goes through that, that's how we make mistakes and learn from them.

I wouldn't be surprised if most developers actually did their first project for nothing at all, I think we all under value our skills to start with and it takes time to realise how much our skills are worth.

That's what I find funny when you put a "real" bill into do a site and you see the owners face, if their initial reaction is, "how much??!", I know it's time to go quoting for a different project.

Then one day you'll see that the site's been redesigned by a third-party for a much higher fee and you were never told or given a chance to pitch.

Actually to expand on this, I once put a price in to do a site, it was a brochure site, nothing amazing. I put in a low price as it was for a business a friend worked at (a beauty shop). It was a small business, not much free cash so I did it at a very good rate. I then found out via a phone call one day that I had not got the project as she had hired a company that was charging her twice as much.

To give me a real kick, I actually found out when the other company rang me to ask for DNS login details to change the A records, she had not even told me herself I had not got it or given the chance to show designs and a development plan.

It turns out she thought she would be getting a better service and end result as I was charging less when in fact I was doing it as a favour. It goes to show it can work either way!

Had that happen to me many times.

Problem with being a smallish web development company is that you're either getting the difficult dregs, or you're hoping large multi-disciplinary agencies don't lure away your lucrative gems.

I don't see the problem? You just tell them your fee is more than that, and that's it.

Basically, you either work for free (as a favour to friends or charity) or full charge. No in between.

The power of "free" over "friend's fee" is that they know it's a favour so they can't feel entitled to anything--and if they still do, you may feel entitled to take a dump in their kitchen sink (free of charge).

I feel like I have to jump in here. The worst clients I've ever had (and also the worst clients other businesses I've worked with have had) are the ones you do charity work for (family included). When people aren't paying for something, they place absolutely no value on your time, and without fail the relationship will sour at some point.

I'd charge a friend or charity a lower rate that they can afford but strategically set such that their budget (and amount of work they get) seems finite to them. Forces them to come up with their plan and execute, instead of "yeah that's nice, but my friend said THIS would be a better idea...can you just redo the whole thing??" Yes, you can say no, but like I said if there are expectations on either side, it can sour the relationship.

I'm with you. I lie about what I do to half my friends to avoid their hurt expressions when they find out that I'm not going to bunker down for the next 2 weeks writing their app for free.

No I agree, I don't do it. I was just pointing out what I have put in other posts

I've been developing for a while, apps specifically for about 2 years and this is my take on things: Yes, I get many many people saying hey, I have this great idea... or hey, my friend wants to make an app... But here is where I think I may differ from others, I am these people too, everyday I wake up with ideas, I write them down and tell them to myself later, I test my own ideas on myself because I can, I know the industry and I know how to research ideas and more often than not, they are not worth my time. But that does not mean I stop thinking... So why shut out all the other ideas that people, sometimes strangers even, are just throwing at you all the time for free? These could be sources for great inspiration (probably not) but it only takes 1 good idea to make you realize that hey, these are people out in the world with different views, different problems, and different solutions. Its like having 100 brains waking up in the morning going hey write this down I think it could be a good idea.

All that aside, here is what I do every time someone pitches an idea (no matter who they are and what the idea might be):

1) Listen

2) Think about it (is this unique, good, stupid, wait... don't I already have this app?)

3) Ask them some key questions, (how will it make money? How much time do you have every day to work on this? How much money can you spend on this project? Have you done any research on the idea? What other apps are there like this one?)

4) Pull out the iPhone and do a quick search for obvious app titles matching their idea and show them the results then ask, what about all these? Have you tested all of these?

5) Give them a 30 second lesson on using the internet and the app store to research their ideas. (nicely)

6) Give them my contact info if they don't already have it - even if the idea sucked (remember 90% of your ideas suck too) and why miss an opportunity to network.

7) If the idea sparks an interest, Say hey, Id like to see a layout of that sometime. Or if its really great set up a time for a call.

8) If it blows, don't worry, they will probably have forgotten about it a week later.

9) Congratulate yourself on not being an ass and realize that you helped someone, yourself, and the rest of the developers out there. They will be better prepared the next time they begin the "I have a great idea..." speech.

This only takes 5 mins and you really never know what you might hear. Ideas are great because they make us think, they test us, they inspire us, and sometimes they can make us rich if can figure out how to use them well.

I have to say I love your attitude towards ideas. I often have ideas for projects outside my wheelhouse (mostly personal projects) and talk to EEs and MEs about building stuff. It would suck if all my friends were archetypal hn-programmer-that-hates-idea-guys, I'd probably even drop them as friends. I'm so out of my depth on some things that I share it just to find out if its a completely stupid idea.

Then again, I like building things for the sake of building them, and know people that do too.

I always get this tiring feeling when someone comes up to me to talk about an idea. Especially if it's one of these "fast talking" kind of people. Most of them involve some kind of "social X". Even more saddening is how the people that have these "ideas", have no clue how to market it, where profit comes from, and so forth.

I believe that the only time I've heard of a decent or good idea was from fellow programmers or designers, rather than "business men" or founders of small companies and claim they know it all. Then after they explain their idea, they expect you to invest 90% of your time on the product, promise you a certain ownership percentage (usually ~10%?), rather than paying a good salary up-front; so if it flops they didn't lose any of their time or had to invest any amount of cash. I believe something similar to this happened to some dude who then open-sourced the project. I forgot what project that was, it happened recently.

You can of course listen to anyone's idea, but as the article stated, the chance that it's not another dumb or over-done idea is usually very slim.

     Especially if it's one of these "fast talking" 
     kind of people. Most of them involve some 
     kind of "social X".

Remember when it used to be "eCommerce X"?

Ha, and what'll be next..? Well, I guess I'm also quite thankful in a way that noobs like that don't actually get good idea's in the first place, although it can be quite annoying.

"Local X"

"Casual (se)X"

The rule that "ideas are nothing, execution is everything" fails to properly acknowledge the class of ideas that come from genuine domain experts. In this situation (and presuming the idea does not require an absurd level of technical specialism and they can bring distribution to the party) then it can even end up being reversed.

I get the same kind of thing, but not aimed at iPhone apps-- rather, start-up ideas.

My approach is to first ask people who their customers will be, and how they plan on selling to them-- and then, if they get past that, I'll hear what the idea is.

The best answer I give is an honest one. "I'm too busy with contracts, and I have a number of my own ideas that I'd love to be working on.[1]"

This answer brings up the commonly echoed sentiment among my mobile developer cohort of the tradeoff between client contracts and your own product work. One is easier, one pays off long term.

[1] This does not necessarily mean for profit. See http://rawsyntax.com/post/5982784556/importance-of-side-proj...

This is the same philosophy I take with regards to meetings. I'd gladly take a coffee, lunch, or other meeting with anyone who is interested because you never know what may come out of it. Sure, sometimes I'm busy, but there's always time for lunch and coffee. Take meetings, have conversations, let 1,000 flowers bloom or whatever the relevant expression is. But I also state in advance that our conversation is not subject to any non-disclosure agreement, and I explain that we are both free to do with the information whatever we like. If they're not comfortable with that, I explain that the purpose of the meetings is to see what mutual value we can bring each other. That's enough to screen the random meetings.

I got an email the other day, from a young kid wanting me to sign a NDA, so I could quote him on his idea. I suggested he look at programming himself, and he did not take it well. I did explain to him that signing an NDA would be a disservice to me, if I was working on a similar idea, but he did not see the problem with that.

"I've got an idea for an app" is the new "Will you read my screenplay?"

That was a hilarious twist in the end. I'm just like you except for the last paragraph... maybe i'll start listening to people's ideas again :)

In the circle that I move around, everyone wants an ecommerce store for their business that can generate sales even when they are sleeping.

I tell them I am busy with my own stuff but I take time to meet and listen to them. After the meeting, I do research, put together a plan with the breakdown of costs for outsourcing development, marketing and the estimated revenue.

That's when I stop hearing from them. They get either too busy or they realize that it's not as easy as they think. I am yet to find someone who followed up on the plan.

Isn't life always like that? Many with plans but very few who act on them.

I don't have a problem hearing from people with ideas, what I have a problem with is 9 out of 10 people fail to execute and as a result, waste my time. It seems that to many, having a business, or an app idea, is as far as it gets. As an entrepreneur, that bugs the hell out of me.

Well since 9 out of 10 companies fail then what's the big deal?

You think it's a bigger problem for you than it is for those who fail?

I don't understand your point.

He's not referring to the fact that they try and fail, it's that they fail to TRY. I have the same problem as well. People are always excited and impatient to set up a meeting to talk about an "app/website idea" they're really serious about. I'll take the time to put them in my schedule, go meet them somewhere and listen to them talk for an hour or two, and thats as far as it ever gets. Everybody wants to talk about their idea, and most seem to think I should be willing to work for some equity.

My last experience with this is fairly typical. A restaurant manager I worked with a couple years ago had "a brilliant idea". He was emailing and calling me constantly, refused to talk over the phone and was doing anything he could to get me into a meeting A.S.A.P. since he 'really wanted to get rolling on this'. I heard him out and quoted him $4,000. Never heard from him again. I tried calling once, left a voice mail, and attempted to follow up on two occasions via e-mail and nothing.

And _that's_ what he's talking about. People that waste our time in meetings and don't ever follow through.

This is exactly it. In fact, I was just talking with my partner last week about the fact that almost every time we get a potential client or lead that wants to meet or talk on the phone first, it almost always never turns into real work. On the contrary, our best clients rarely, if ever, request meetings or phone/face time.

His idea was that to these "idea people," the meeting is a replacement for work. I'm not sure what I think, aside from the fact that I'm tired of wasting my time.

Maybe more than a replacement for work, it's a feeling that they've "done something" about the idea.

A lot of this comes down to a) non-technical types pursuing their ideas with an unconstrained mental framework and b) non-linearity of good ideas.

a) Unconstrained mental frameworks: "I want a location-based photo-sharing app that comes with angry birds integration" It can't be that hard. There has to be some plugin on github that solves that problem for you already, since it's a great idea."

Since this idea is guaranteed to produce a billion dollars, any developer would have to be irrational to turn down even a 10% equity offer.

b) Non-linearity of good ideas - I'm finding that it's often fewer features and fewer things that make compelling business ideas / user experiences. See Dan Ariley's TED talk [1]. It's intriguing how a negative feature delta (less is more!) often results in something more compelling.

Understanding if something is a good idea is a problem more akin to finding the optimal way of loading an aircraft, where the problem has to be tested, exposed, and simulated; not a simple forecast model where the answer is binary. People will never know whether they're sitting on a great idea until they test their strategy and see how it turns out.

On a side-note, a friend and I have a small service that attempts to solve this problem. It's called Casual Contracting [2] and tries to frame this problem in a positive light for both devs and idea people.

[1] http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_ariely_asks_are_we_in_control_o...

[2] http://casualcontracting.com

Great point, and if I may say ideas are almost worthless. They're floating all over, they're everywhere. Bad ones, good ones, done ones... I believe what makes it worth is the execution, the effort of making an app running and selling.

I believe `Angry Birds` is a good example of it. It's success did not come from the idea at all. A simple game with a good execution and good marketing made it so popular.

Agreeing with the article; I just want to add that hearing people's ideas also put you into an awkward position. They give you responsibility of either not doing that application without that person's consent or sharing a revenue.

You usually don't need neither, because as a developer you're already putting more mental work on how to come up with better apps than some friend's mother of yours.

And hearing people like they invented the wheel all the time really is boring.

a social network for sharing pictures of coffee

Isn't that Instagram? So yeah, always listen to ideas :-)

No, that'd be http://artinmycoffee.com/

There are few niches still unexplored. :)

Acting condescending towards people who don't understand my field for not understanding my field could be counter productive? Yeah, this is a no-brainier.

The anti-"idea guy" attitude was all ego, no logic. I can't say I'm surprised that it took off as well as it did, it felt good and matched the reality that most ideas suck so it was easy to adopt. I'm not surprised, but a disappointed that more people didn't recognize it for what it was. Oh well, being the only guy hearing the good ideas was fun while it lasted.

The way I've learned to deal with this is that I listen enthusiastically, and then I ask the person with the idea to come back with sketches or something more concrete. That has, so far, eliminated 100% of the ideas outright. When someone really serious comes to me with a concrete idea, I'll know it, and then we'll talk for real. Asking the person with the idea to do a little work to make it real is a great way to determine how serious they really are.

This is actually quite old already. It used to be "I have an idea for a website."

I have an idea for an ARPANET mailing list about cats! (1980)

I have an idea for a USENET newgroup about cats! (1985)

I have an idea for an IRC channel about cats! (1989)

I have an idea for an FTP site about cats pictures! (1990)

I have an idea for a Gopher site about cat pictures! (1992)

I have an idea for web page about cat pictures and stories! (1995)

I have an idea for Java applet about cat animations! (1995)

I have an idea for a Yahoo category about cat fans! (1996)

I have an idea for a blog designed especially for publishing personal opinions about cats! (1998)

I have an idea for an e-Commerce cat food distribution network! (1999)

I have an idea for a virtual online currency for cats! (2000)

I have an idea for a web scripting language for building feline sites! (2001)

I have an idea for a Flash game about cats! (2002)

I have an idea for a Content Management System for managing cats! (2002)

I have an idea for a Object Relational Manager for storing information about cats! (2003)

I have an idea for a social network for cats! (2004)

I have an idea about a movie sharing site for cat videos! (2005)

I have an idea for an iPhone app for taking pictures of cats! (2007)

I have an idea for a iPad app for cats to use! (2010)

...How far we've come in 30 years...

Ah, this is amusingly true.

I suppose the ubiquitous nature of smart phones gives the common person more exposure to software than ever before, therefore compelling some to pitch half baked app ideas ('how about an app like Facebook, but in 3D!').

You never know though, there might be some buried gold in some suggestions. You just need your stupid-crap filter set on high :)

Even dumb ideas can have a germ of greatness, or send you down a path to greatness.

There's a technique for getting out of the state when you're out of ideas (writer's block & the like.) Generate a few purposefully silly or outlandish ideas and work from that.

I was talking to a guy on the train once who was telling me he'd love to build an iPhone app (context: iPad early adopter, someone else was cooing over it or whatever). He was under the illusion that it was about as simple as creating a spreadsheet.

I broke the bad news to him that creating an iPhone app was rather more complicated than that and required you to understand quite a difficult programming language (Objective-C) and a non-trivial framework (Cocoa, UIKit) and make a financial investment in a Mac and an Apple developer account. I kind of feel bad about it afterwards because it might be a good idea.

I just don't think it's healthy when people think that writing software is easy or doesn't require skill and expertise... because they might get scammed in the same way as if they go around believing that investing in the stock market is guaranteed PROFIT!1!

The problem is you have an idea for a drink picture sharing app. Some guy tells you he's got an idea. you listen. He says "I want to make a coffee picture sharing app". You say, "lame idea". 2 months later you ship your "drink picture sharing app". You get sued. (hmm, sounds kind of like FB)

That's why companies don't listen to ideas.

This is especially true in games. Some guy comes and says "I've got an idea for game. It's going to have dragons in it". After that if you have any game that has dragons in it odds or not so low that the guy will consider suing you.

Of course you can sign NDAs and other agreements but that's not so "nice" and not a guarantee you still won't get sued.

Of course I hope for the best in your experiences. I'm just pointing out it's not just that devs think other ideas aren't worth listening to. There are other valid reason not to listen.

Im so surprised that this is getting so much attention. The only time you should listen if its something along these lines, obviously squeezed into one sentence so you dont get the opportunity to cut him off "I have this great idea (microsecond pause), im so confident that it work, (microsecond pause), that ive ['released US$50k equity loan from home','borrow $35k from brother','prepared to invest my liquid savings of 42k into it']."

If it takes the turn of you do the development/impl and ill do the "sales, marketing, requirements, design, gathering investors, watering the plants" get him/her to quantify the success they had in each area and why they no capital to make a financial investment themselves (hint: most do via house equity but wouldnt dream of touching it - too risk (i.e. make your own mind up.)

Nice cliffhanger.

I tend to listen to people's app ideas when their ideas revolve around their life or area of expertise.

For the rest of us, it's easier to start as a competitor in a big market than to envision a latent need and build a product around it. If the app idea has not been implemented before, there's a high chance the founder is having the "invented here" hallucination. I'd try to find a place where the need is obvious and try to build the best product in that category instead of coming up with an ingenious new idea. I believe ideas are overrated (but vision matters).

Steve Jobs take: "I want [Apple] to be much better, I don't care of being different." (Youtube: http://goo.gl/YPQJt)

I like being tell "I've got an idea"... I feel flattered; Thing is, these people tell that to everyone of their friends, but only you! The computer nerd, is able to give them real criticism.

Last time a girl saw me coding, and she told me: Are you programming? (I just nod) I find that amazing, I mean, you could do my job (marketing) and you understand it, I can't understand what you do, it's like magic.

She apparently wants to build a fashion website, I asked two questions and she had no answer, I told her to get back to me when she gets a better idea of what she wants to build.

Currently my cofounders are not technical, but they have the best ideas! And do the things I don't want to do :-).

I have an experience just like this. I was telling my (now) cofounder in glorious detail why his list of ideas sucked or required way too much work, and then one of them ... well actually, that one was pretty cool. Now we've built it!

Chris, is your friend contributing anything else besides the idea? ie capital, programming, design, business contacts? If not then I hope you aren't considering a 50/50 split because that would be quite unfair to you.

He's doing pretty much everything (design, hardware, investments, marketing, packaging, and running the company). The app is brilliant and very simple.

hardware? this isn't looking like it's just an app =)

Wish I could tell more!

There is no value in ideas. It is always about hardworking with intelligent sense. Ideas are like seeds. You can grow a Giant Sequoia out of it. But if you don't know how you can not even grow a bean bud.

There are still a tiny fraction of vary good ideas that are worth something. Pagerank is a classic example where the idea was clearly worth something the problem is even great ideas tend to be worth less than 5% of the company after a year or so.

The hard part is sticking to your guns and actually telling your 'friend' that sounds like a good idea. You can pay me X/hour to build and market it or I can build it and hand over 5% of the profits it's up to you.

> ... print some small cards with "No, I won’t listen to your app idea"

> Dear Sir, Thank you for your proof of Fermat's Last Theorem. The first error is on page _____.

This is said to be Hilbert or Landau. He had this printed on the cards and he would have an undergraduate to fill in the blank and mail it back to an author whenever a new proof of Fermat's Theorem was received :)

I think this Cornell study fits in quite nicely with how you felt when people approached you with their idea for an app: http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Aug11/ILRCreativityBias....

Just out of curiosity, what would you advise these people who have ideas, but aren't technically proficient, to do? Is there a correct way to approach someone? Should they prepare something before talking to you to show they are serious (maybe a short write up, or a sketch)?

Should they prepare something before talking to you to show they are serious

Checks, letters of intent from customers who they've sold the pre-extant system to +, customer lists, etc.

Sketches are nice, too. I prefer charcoal as a medium and dragons as a subject. A good sketch makes a great complement to a check or LOI.

+ Happens all the time. Really.

Haha... I will say "mock up" from now on. Thanks! (My dragon would probably end up looking like a fire breathing cow anyway) Great advice about securing customers first. If you can't do that it's probably not worth either of your time.

I wasn't poking fun at your word choice, don't worry. I'm just sort of skeptical that product-related process documents actually add any value. Money? Customers? These are things I don't have enough of. Documents? Any idiot can write documents. Many do.

If you were approaching me, a dozen 'letter of intents' as described above would certainly grab my attention. It proves 3 things:

* You're serious * You're a good salesman * There's a market for your idea

Yes. The number one, guaranteed way to get a developer's attention is to go and sell your idea. Literally. Sell the would-be product to someone and get a contract. Sure, that contract will be full of outs for the buyer, but it's still a contract.

Getting to this point is a lot of work. It means you will have thought things through. It means you will have talked to your customers. It means you probably have mocked something up. You have probably invested a small amount of cash.

But mostly it means someone will pay for it which elevates your idea from "nope - waste of time unless you give me $20k" to "ok, we may have something here".

If you want to pay market rates (cash), I'd say show up with a mockup. If you want to convince a developer to join you for equity, show up with a sale.

Quite.

Some years back, a guy named Bill and his buddy contacted a company making kit computers and said "we have a BASIC interpreter we'd like to sell you". The company said "a dozen others have said the same thing; we'll pay whoever delivers one." A few weeks later, Bill & pal delivered.

And thus Microsoft shipped its first product.

Thanks for the advice. I honestly hadn't thought of securing commitments prior to developing a prototype. But it's definitely better to find out if people are willing to buy prior to investing a substantial amount, if possible.

hi frankiewarren; I was a Java/Sql/PHP/HTML programmer for several years and now I'm a senior BA. This is how I'd interact with you.. When anyone approaches me with an idea, I immediately tell them I'm not going to program it, but I'd be happy to guide them in the docs they need to successfully contract it out. We have a short sitdown chat and I walk them through vision -> target audience -> user goals -> stories -> use cases -> flowchart -> actions -> screen mockups. It's their job to write all the docs. I read them, make suggestions of what areas to look into, a minimal feature set to launch first, errors and recovery, etc. This idea development work encourages the serious people and stops the dilettantes. I get to hear new ideas (I love ideas) and I can choose which ones I'd want to be involved with. There have been a few awesome ones, and one is being built. My advice is: * Think why your idea better than what's already there (or why it's easier to find, easier to use, etc) * Practice your enthusiastic sales pitch of why it's so awesome. If you don't love it noone else will. * Don't give up if the first 10 people don't like it. (but, consider a new idea after 30 people run away)

I like saying a variant of what the author says: “I probably won’t have time to build it, but I can help you learn how to implement it yourself.”

Sadly so far no one has taken up my offer. I can't help but feel that it's never I can't do it, but it's more like I can't be bothered with it.

I'm not really bothered by the "I've got an idea for an app" lines so much as I'm bothered by the fact that web apps are seen as websites. So when someone says "I've got an idea for a website" to me they think I'm just going to write some html and call it a day.

There are few people that can give you an idea to make you fall off your chair, and it's worth listening to 10,000 bad ideas to find someone with one good idea that can be executed, without actually causing you to execute yourself in the process.

I was cringing until I got to the end to find that his advice was bang on.

The fable of the Lion and the Mouse is something I need to constantly remind myself (and others) of.

That's exactly what I hoped to achieve, thanks for the kind words.

Good advice indeed. The process of analyzing ideas itself is implicitly difficult so, at the very least, it's nice to have an opportunity to hone that skill.

"I've got an idea for an app", almost inevitably followed by..."I don't have any funding but I can offer a great equity deal".

Or, "It's sure to make millions of dollars, but the idea is so revolutionary and so top secret that I can't tell you anything about it until you agree to do all the work." Oy.

I've been on the flip side of the fence. I've had some ideas I was quite keen on, but then got them destroyed by experts in the field. When an expert like Chris tells you that you have a good idea, then you know you're onto something.

P.S. Chris, if you still want to make those business cards, here's a link to 50 free business cards - http://efbuys.com/publishers/efactor/daily_deals/30088

I always listen to new ideas - even if I think the idea sucks initially, it's great to get my own creative juices flowing.

Im inclined to believe that the original opinion of this article that ideas are worthwhile and execution is important (agreed!) has NEVER been an opinion of yours, rather someone has tried to talk sense into you before you embark on slave labor executing this idea from an idea man, perhaps in exchange for 50% of nothing. Too fishy.. But hey it solves that little conflict that's going on in your head now..

What is the best alternative to those who think they have a good idea for an app?

Most often peoples ideas pretty much require a server and a much more complicated pricing scheme than they think. When that's the case I explain that much, but you probably always loose when you do.

One of the most awkward moments was when I actually met with a friend and his friend about making an app. I only realized halfway through that they didn't have an idea, just a wish to make an app. A few hours of awkwardly groping for some tenuous b2b projects and we parted company.

yet another useless post

Chris: Y U no tell the idea?

I would, but the guy asked me not to, and I respect that. I'm very open about my own ideas though ;).

So you're going to develop it? Or him?

Oh, I forgot to mention that. Yes, we're working on the roadmap now. It's going to be awesome!

Let guess 50% share of the company for executing this brain dead idea.

I can't parse this.

<message><to>Chris</to><from>larelli</from><re>http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2965141</re><...;

It's secret.

At a risk of sounding horrible (I'm not), did you finish writing the article? I mean, if you don't listen to all ideas that people have to offer you, then you're bound to dismiss a good idea at some point.

Maybe you did not finish reading it?

".. That’s when I decided: always listen to ideas .."

That's exactly the point.

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