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Comment by wirthjason | Hacker News Reader

I have a 2.75 yr old daughter. I’m amazed at the mental growth at this age. Anyone have good recommendations for pop science books on toddler psychology? Another post mentioned the author Michel Tomasello.

I’m curious how punishment and corrective behavior is interpreted. Theres a lot of situations I don’t know how to handle. Recently my daughter has been spitting up juice, including on me, because she thinks it’s funny. When something like this happens I give her a light thump on the head with my finger and a stern “no, that’s bad”. But she doesn’t like it and starts crying. She then runs to her mom who then hugs her and says it will be OK. I feel like this is a lose-lose situation. She needs to learn this behavior isn’t acceptable but it makes me the bad guy and mommy the nice one.

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Stop the head thumping or any physical punitive action no matter how light. You might have to restrain her at some point but that's different. The only thing you're teaching with those actions is "violence solves problems" and you will see her hit other children and you a lot more as a result. Walk away, put her down, tell her you don't like it when she does that, take the juice away, etc. Don't thump.

I like to think "what would I do in this situation if this were an adult?" and respond accordingly. If you hit someone for spitting in your face you'd end up in jail. Is that the behavior you want to model? I don't understand why we think it's OK to treat kids that way. Violence is violence in my book.

Edit: You MUST learn to set boundaries without violence. A lot of bad parenting stems from our own upbringing where boundaries were set with violence so we don't know how to set them in other ways. Many of us just end up not setting any boundaries at all rather than use violence which can end very very badly with a boundary-pushing child. Learn to say "no" and stick to it at least some of the time (and flex when they negotiate well). I've gotten a ton of mileage out of taking away part of TV time if they act poorly or refuse to contribute to chores.

This book holds a surprising wealth of knowledge in how to encourage replacement behaviors[0]. Can view it in "SumatraPDF" (reads a very wide variety of formats, not just PDF). Even just the first few chapters are amazing. Generally seems to work to:

- accept that their current behavior is probably an effective way to get what they want

- identify what they want

- get them to do something else instead which is either more productive or at least more acceptable to you

- immediately reward them by giving them lots of what they want

Repeat the last two a lot and eventually the new behavior replaces the old one. The trick is that, once learned, the old behavior is never "unlearned"...it just slowly fades away and is used less and less. But even after a very long time if the new behavior stops working, eventually they'll try the old one again. Generally you'll have infinitely more success rewarding FOR behavior, rather than giving feedback AGAINST behavior.

0: http://libgen.rs/search.php?req=perfect+Sophia+yin

> When something like this happens I give her a light thump on the head with my finger and a stern “no, that’s bad”. But she doesn’t like it and starts crying. She then runs to her mom who then hugs her and says it will be OK.

Growing up there is always the good cop bad cop but there needs to be lines drawn. Talk to your partner about the situation and make sure she knows this needs to be corrected so when she cries to mommy, mommy backs you up and and supports you by telling your daughter "You shouldn't spit juice on daddy. Its not nice to spit juice on people." She can still comfort her, but she has to back you. If not then good luck.

When she does it, take the juice away and say it's for drinking, not spitting. Explain why spitting is unacceptable to you.

If she goes crying to her mother, her mother should back you up.

She can have her juice back once she agrees to drink it and not spit it. If she does it again take it away for a longer time and repeat.

Physical violence is not needed, you don't treat adults that way, children are people too.

My daughter is 3.5 years old. Great that you asked. Please don’t do that.

I can recommend this book series and in particular “Positive Discipline: The First Three Years”

https://www.amazon.com/dp/0804141185/

For anyone reading this, don’t get caught up by the “discipline” in the book title. The authors are against punishment.

You daughter isnt the problem. You have a relationship issue. The problem is your wife. But you already know that...

Have you tried just making an distinctive sound (like a buzzer sound with your mouth) and taking away the juice? Nothing said, nobody hurt but a clear indication of a boundary violation with a non-painful consequence?

If you want to continue “thumping” her, it may be something you want to get her consent and make it more of a game. “If you spit up you get thwack from me flicking your forehead and if you swallow I pat your belly”. Kids love games and are insanely easy to trick. Boundaries should be opted into and the rules clear ahead of time. Learning the rules should not be penalized (eg if she spits up you remind her “we agreed I’d flick your forehead if you spit up - gimme your forehead”). Imagine what your reaction would be if someone randomly thumped your forehead for breaking some kind of social norm you didn’t understand.

She thinks she's funny, you don't, she is upset at your disapproval and reprimand. She goes to another adult for comfort and reassurance. The other adult provides it and says "It will be OK"

What will be OK? Spitting juice on people will never be OK. Her anger will subside yes, but I do think She needs a consistent message that doubly reinforces the immorality of her action.

I'd also state, if she goes to daycare, she may be picking up and reinforcing behaviors there, so to some extent home may need a different set of rules, lest she bring back any bad habit she finds and Mom tacitly approves it. Good cop bad cop, eh, I'd say there's no good cop who would approve of juice spitting.

I can’t imagine hitting my child on the head, even lightly. The messaging that sends is so wrong on so many levels. Besides which, they will likely end up hitting someone else on the head when they don’t like what they’re doing.

But, aside from that, if you’re looking for a mental model for teaching children, I think Reinforcement Learning is highly applicable. If you consider their observation space, action space, and reward signals, you start to see that you have quite a lot of levers for helping them learn and grow.

I guess I should have split this into two comments. Now I can't tell if the downvotes are from pro-hitters or anti-RL'ers

This sounds a lot like my daughter (3yo). She likes to play up, but also craves approval from her parents and stern words can be devastating to her.

The best approach we've found is to progressively and predictably escalate our language and tone. Starting with a friendly "now, now" and ending with time out if she hasn't fixed her behavior. At some point along the way she usually recognizes The Voice and course corrects voluntarily without needing to be reprimanded.

As with all thing parenting, YMMV ;)

Kids want attention, good or bad. So try walking away and giving her the cold shoulder the next few times she does that and see if it works. Don’t forget to also give her a lot of positive attention when she drinks juice and doesn’t do that to you.

Never use physical force unless the child is in danger. Instead simply take away a favourite toy and tell her she will get it back when her behaviour improves.

Highly recommend Daniel Siegel: https://www.goodreads.com/author/show/191925.Daniel_J_Siegel

Don’t react. Sometimes if they don’t get a reaction they stop doing it, because it’s your reaction they seek.

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