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Comment by izacus | Hacker News Reader

The numbers quoted look in line with the rest of the "Great Exodus" in the IT industry... Is there any special proof that there's something more going on than the post covid resignation spike (following record high retention 2020) we're seeing across the rest of the industry?

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Sorry but what exodus in the it industry?

Here in Germany if you can code "hello world". You will get a job.

Also all of my peers and friends around Europe are still working in the industry.

So I'm just wondering.

Can you point to any source? Is this maybe something that happens in the US?

It's also about about techies jumping jobs for more money, not just leaving the industry entirely. It is US-centric and not limited to tech.

https://www.recruiter.com/i/no-post-pandemic-the-great-job-e...

But I'd also say the common wisdom in US tech is to jump jobs every couple of years for a raise anyway, so losing 1/4 of engineers per year seems in line with expectations.

But isn't it normal to change you work place every X years?

Even here in Europe. If I ask my current boss that I want like a raise of 1/3 of my salary he laughs but when I leave to a new company I laugh.

I worked in Germany, Lithuania and Norway.

Basically you are forced to change your job if you are a good developer and want to get more money.

And for me a lot of gaming studios which I loved in the 90's and 00's have lost all the glory. Just look at Blizzard, EA and Ubisoft.

It really worth looking at the history of EA and why it even exists.

Americans have always done it in larger numbers though, because in times of economic slowdown they don't try and prop up existing business employment using furlough schemes, and it has been extremely easy to move and get a new job throughout the history of the country. (EU freedom of movement was inspired by the US which has always had it at a continental scale, and it's a lot more practical since nearly everyone's first language is also the US's lingua franca.)

This leads to upsides and downsides. Generally speaking, a lot more people lose jobs during US slowdowns, but the US tends to bounce back a lot faster as well since the labor market is flexible and responds rapidly to changes. One concern with furlough-type schemes is that they keep people at "zombie" firms that the economy may be pivoting away from.

> One concern with furlough-type schemes is that they keep people at "zombie" firms that the economy may be pivoting away from

That's a valid concern, but IMHO market forces can still correct for that ( if other companies are doing better they can provide better salaries which could entice employees at zombies to switch jobs), and there are limitations ( of time). And from what we saw during times of crises like pandemics, furlough schemes are drastically better than buggy localised unemployment schemes unfit for the scale of the labour shift, and checks in the mail, which heavily distorted the US labour market.

The issue with zombie firms is not really furlough itself but the fact that anything that prolongs a zombie firm's life will mean that firm is still sucking up things like credit and capital that would inhibit the ability of new firms to take their place. And firms that are clearly dying take a long time to finally die; even in the US, where firms are not really supported, department stores like Sears and Macy's limped on for a decade or two.

The extreme version of the sclerotic economy is probably Japan, with an honorable mention for Italy. Policymakers desperately want to avoid falling into a zombie trap, because there hasn't been a country that has made it out of one yet.

I think they mean that devs are leaving companies in higher numbers, not leaving the industry as a whole.

Maybe it is meant to be more people changing companies now? I don't see people leaving IT industry either.

I've used the term because that's what the media uses to talk about the spike of people quitting their jobs for new positions.

Yeah, the fact that just any amount of basic coding skills will get you a job is proof for it, not against it.

Companies are hurting for talent.

> Here in Germany if you can code "hello world". You will get a job.

Maybe I need to learn German, because this definitely doesn't apply to UK from my experience. You need to invest at least 4 months full-time before getting a junior role that pays as much as retail. Then you need to spend your evenings and weekends for the next 1-2 years before earning average salary.

Why is that?

Too much local supply and global competition. Companies big and small are hiring devs in low cost places like Portugal.

In Europe there is a huge number of open positions for the lowest end of qualifications: testers, junior developers, web designers etc, but a very small number for senior developers, architects. This correlates with salaries, jobs with entry level salaries are all over the place, but not the higher end. Again, this is in Europe.

Europe where? In France the market for senior architects, SRE, DevOps, etc. is extremely hot on both sides - i recently went over a job search over a few months and got multiple very good proposals very quickly; and on the other side, i talk regularly with people involved in recruitment, and there are a lot of open unfilled senior positions. Heck, i get 2-3 recruiters with legitimate job offers weekly on LinkedIn.

Eastern Europe. I am hiring in several countries and also looking out, the number of quality applicants is abysmal and I get dozens and dozens of weird calls for impossible jobs (that require a team of 5 to cover) or "entry level" senior architect with 15 years of experience (not kidding, it was a German company coming with that requirement). Probably the meaning is entry level pay for senior level people.

I guess that makes sense. Recently i got an email from a VMware recruiter for a conference aimed at Bulgarians living outside of Bulgaria, to talk about opportunities at VMware Bulgaria. They must be pretty desperate for talent to make such reaches, even if it makes sense from their end, they can offer something rather unique.

They bet on hiring cheap people in Bulgaria and finding that the supply is not infinite, so they are trying to source some. All the companies with offices in Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine etc are looking for cheap workforce, preferably very skilled and experienced but accepting to work for 1/4 to 1/8 of SV salaries. These days even India is quite expensive and the value proposition (cost-benefit) used to be better for Eastern Europe (similar or a bit higher cost, much better quality and results), so they are hiring in this region as much as possible.

The exodus refers to churn. Resignations are high but hiring is also high.

I can do quite a bit beyond hello world, speak German and have right of residency. What are the salaries for such programmers? Do get in touch if it's really that simple, I am ready to roll. The job requirements on the job pages are all a bit ridiculous with the requirements, am genuinely curious, if you reply with an email I can contact you I would love to have a chat. Danke vorab.

It’s a great exodus to greener pastures because developers are a pretty scarce resource in those wild times we’re living

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