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Comment by Aissen | Hacker News Reader

Saw that at your neighboor's in Copenhagen, and after the first outrage of paying +50cts per drink, I understood that I was seeing a glimpse the future… If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it.

Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

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> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

It becomes a respectful cooperation. When you party in a park, you place your containers next to a trash so a homeless can pick it up without searching the trash. They basically help you partying hard (and not caring/carrying about the bottles) and earn (by hard work) a bit of money.

I don't know about "respectful" for both parties. Bottle collectors trying to take/steal not yet empty bottles and cans has become more of a rule than an exception in parks in central Stockholm.

I'm still very much in favour of container deposit but I'm growing really tired of forceful collecting.

The people you're referring to are likely not the same kind of people who collect bottles in other countries.

My friend has this jokish ticks screaming out "Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans) when we're a bit drunk, referring to this exact problem. It's inappropriate to go into further detail than to say he's not making fun of any Swedes.

It's one of the downsides of free movement within the EU when you're a country that's built on assuming most people will do right for themselves, the it breaks.

>"Min pant"(roughly translates into "my cans)

Sounds more like "my deposit" to me.

Sure, I find it easier to translate English to Swedish than the other way around I guess.

Though they are referring to your soon to be recycled cans and bottles when semi-agressively trying to steal them from you.

It would be "my pawn", translated more literally.

Some people find this amusing.

Sounds like "Mein Pfand" to me.

I see such behavior here in Germany sometimes, too. Like everywhere else in life, there are nice bottle collectors, and there are assholes.

One collector gave me a sticky, wet butt, because he snuck up behind us in a park, "stole" my half empty beer bottle I placed next to me, and then proceeded to empty it out right there. It was one of the very few times I had trouble controlling myself not to hit somebody... I managed to control myself in the end enough to avoid violence, but was still angry enough to call the cops on the guy. Cops told him to not show up in the park or surrounding parks for the rest of the day, and when they asked if I wanted to press charges (technically it was theft and damage of property), the collector waved a 20 Euro note for "cleaning costs", which I took instead. I felt that was punishment enough.

Then again, there is plenty of bottle collectors who are rather polite, and humbly ask if you're done with the bottle and if they can have it. And a lot of people also gather together their empty bottles in a pile when they see a collector approaching.

I'm quite disappointed you didn't press charges to he honest, (s)he must've understood perfectly what (s)he was doing and the consequences, yet he still did it. And you're likely not the only person abused like that.

Yes there are loads of nice appreciative collectors and they are doing us a service, it's just sad when the predators come and ruin it.

My hope was that involving the cops was scary enough (they took down the details of that person, and issued a formal order to vacate), and that the immediate monetary "punishment" in form of those 20 bucks (which is a lot of bottles) helped too. I felt it was a reasonable severe response to what happened. Causing that guy a lot of legal trouble, aside from clogging up the legal system with not even 20 bucks worth of damages, seemed unreasonable.

Those cops are also regularly working that area (they in fact were already in the park when I called, and I had seen them before doing their rounds), and if that bottle collector violated their order to vacate, it would have had actual consequences. And if he pulls the same shit again, the cops will have a "you again moment", and probably mention that to the next person who makes a complaint and at the very least issue a much longer order to vacate. And since they didn't mention anything to me, I am assuming it was the first time the cops were called on that guy, and we Germans have a tendency to call the cops quite often ;)

It also saved me from a lot of hassle myself, of course, not having to go to the police to give a signed statement, maybe show up in court, etc.

Sounds like a smaller city? My assumption is based on recognition of the recycler, that wouldn't happen around here.

How much is a deposit compared to the full price of a drink?

Here in Czechia it's 3czk deposit for ~20czk full drink price and I've never noticed anybody even asking for the bottles, yet alone "stealing" them.

In DK it goes up to 3 DKR for a 1,5 liters bottle of soda that you might pay 15-25 dkr for.

All these deposits are so low. Germany has 25 cent on non-beer plastic bottles.

Which means when buying a 1,5 liters bottle of water, the bottle is worth more (25 cent) than the water in it (19 cent).

Bottle collectors are quite common, haven't met any rude ones myself, but they are even speed-collecting trough the trash cans of trains stopped making stops at the station.

The prices are in Danish crowns, and aren't that far away from the German ones, although some consideration should be made for the higher cost of living here.

Glass bottles, normal cans: 1kr = 13¢

Small plastic bottles: 1.5kr = 20¢

Large plastic bottles (≥ 1L): 3kr = 40¢

https://danskretursystem.dk/en/about-deposits/deposit-marks-...

I remember asking a German friend why people were leaving the bottles on top of the bins when we went to a football match.

Growing up in Scotland collecting Irn Bru bottles was something you could do for "sweetie" money. I was disappointed the last time I looked to find out that they have now decommissioned their bottle cleaning plant. Apparently conventional recycling has resulted in the rate of return being too low.

They are planning to bring it back in Scotland, as a more univeral scheme like the GP descirbes in Norway. The timeline keeps getting pushed back due to lobbying from the drinks industry though: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/dec/14/scotland-del...

In Germany -at least the cities I'm familiar with- everyone places their cans and bottles next to the trash-can. German bottles often have "pfand gehört daneben" (Deposits belong next to it) printed on them[0]. And some cities even placed special holders alongside the trashcans[1].

Like with many things, Germans have made deposit collection into an efficient job.

[0] https://kaiserkiwi.de/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/fritz-kola-... [1] https://www.linksfraktion-hannover.de/fileadmin/fraktionhann...

The only issue is that glass bottles are too cheap and heavy.

They should at least have a 25 cent deposit as well. Right now no homeless person picks those up, because it's just not worth it.

Even with 25 cents there would still be a disincentive due to the weight, but I also don't want to incentivize bottle makers to produce more plastic, for them to lower the price at the counter.

It is 25 cent for glas, plastic bottles or cans in Germany.

Nope, glass bottles are just 8 cents.

Glass bottles are 8 cents, if they are re-use. Re-use glass bottles with a clip closure are 15 cent (and there are still some other kind of bottles with 15 cent). If they are only single use, they are 25 cents (e.g. beer from Lidl).

I really wish it was that easy, but it's not.

Single-use containers are 25 cents, indeed, but a lot of the stuff you will buy is multi-use, and there things vary. Multi-use plastic bottles and large glass bottles usually have a 15 cents deposit, and small beer glass bottles it is only 8 cents, unless they have a clip-lock (Flensburger e.g.) then it's 15 cents again. Vine bottles are extremely confusing, ranging from no deposit, to 2 or 3 cents, to 15 cents.

I saw a lot of bottle collector people skip glass bottles, in particular beer bottles. I live close to a minor league football (soccer) stadium that also hosts the local American Football team and various other events, and bottle collectors are a constant sight before, during and after the games and events. The two closest city tram stops are quite often still littered all over with multi-use beer bottles even days after, because bottle collectors do not like those things. Too heavy and bulky at only 8 cents. People "litter" deliberately, being told the bottle collector people will be happy and thankful for the easy collection...

If I remember correctly, this difference in deposit amount was justified by reasoning lower multi-use deposits compared to single-use deposits would drive the adoption of multi-use. I don't think it has done that much, not really. When single-use deposits became a thing, a lot of single-use containers vanished completely, but once the collection systems got established a lot of it just returned.

I personally would outlaw most types of single-use containers, especially for "cold" beverages, and actually make the deposits all the same amount. That would have a far better and greater impact than bickering about outlawing plastic straws, at the very least. And a glass beer bottle might be worth picking up if it's 25 cents you get for it instead of 8.

> Single-use containers are 25 cents, indeed, but a lot of the stuff you will buy is multi-use, and there things vary. Multi-use plastic bottles and large glass bottles usually have a 15 cents deposit, and small beer glass bottles it is only 8 cents, unless they have a clip-lock (Flensburger e.g.) then it's 15 cents again. Vine bottles are extremely confusing, ranging from no deposit, to 2 or 3 cents, to 15 cents.

To add to all of that confusion; Some brands of yogurt in glass jars also have a deposit on them, while most other yogurt glasses don't.

Right, indeed. Glass jars (usually) have a deposit when they are "multi-use", while single-use plastic containers (and some single-use glass ones) do not. I lost many euros thanks to that, because I didn't know for a long time, and dumped my yogurt glass jars into the normal glass collection containers. It would have been easy to collect the deposits, since I am doing that for all the bottles I use anyway. :P

I don't understand the point of recycling glass. Most glass is mostly sand, an abundant raw material.

AFAIK it's because the initial sand -> glass process is energy intensive, much more so than melting existing glass.

Garbage collectors don't want to handle glass when it's mixed in with the other waste. So it is already collected separately. Might as well recycle it.

> Most glass is mostly sand, an abundant raw material.

Sand is not actually an abundant raw material [0]. Although sand in general is abundant, sand that is usable for construction and manufacturing is generally found on beaches and flood-plains - desert sand is less angular and usable. We extract 50 billion tonnes of sand per year and this is getting worse as a result of continued massive urbanisation. Ocean dredging for sand has significant ecological input.

This might not be why glass recycling started, but it suggests an incentive for continuing to do so.

[0] https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

You would imagine sand was abundant, but: https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191108-why-the-world-is...

Also, glass can be recycled near infinitely and 1 ton of glass created from recycled glass requires 30% less energy than from raw materials: https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

Also, in another world:

- 87% of recyclable glass bottles are recycled https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

- 97% of reusable glass bottles are returned for reuse https://www.palpa.fi/juomapakkausten-kierratys/eri-juomapakk...

- Reusable glass bottles are reused on AVERAGE 33 times https://www.ekopullo.fi/fi/

Yeah, most people are considerate enough to either take their bottles with them or put them somewhere where they can be collected easily, as you wrote. And, even if beer bottles only have 8 cents deposit, are heavy, stinky and the remaining beer may run out, they do get collected sometimes. But, to avoid the impression that in Germany everything works perfectly, I should also mention the (maybe fewer) others, who don't care about the 8 cents and simply smash the bottles on the sidewalk for "fun". As a cyclist, I have a special love for this second category...

Yeh until the machines reject your four crates of beer for no reason and you’re in that limbo of “do I care about €10 enough to lug these to another edeka or not” ;)

i have seen some trash cans in Oslo with a separate cylinder for bottles that gives easy access to the bottles. I hope this becomes more popular, so that they don't have to dig through the trash cans.

It can become a disrespectful cooperation as well.

I’ve had people rummage through recycling bin for cans and leaving a mess, I’ve seen fights over who gets to collect cans, and I’ve seen trespassing to collect cans from people’s private porches.

When collecting cans goes from a lucrative hobby to a business, problems arise.

> homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection

I lived in Alberta 10 years ago and this was totally a thing. One homeless guy hung around the apartment and if you were carrying drink containers he would come and say "Can I take them to the store for you?". Of course, he meant could he get the deposit money on them too. He would hang around until he could fill two or three large garbage bags then head off to the return center to collect the deposit money. In all the time I lived there, I never found out where the actual return center was as I never needed to. The few $ involved was no loss to me (or anyone else in the apartment) but went towards the homeless guy being able to buy food. Never once did he seem drunk or high so he really did seem to be doing it to get food. I would see other guys like him walking along the street with garbage bags of bottles too, so it appeared to be the thing they did and it seemed to work out for everyone as I spoke to lots of people who said they also had a local homeless person that did the same at their apartments.

When I lived in Brazil there was no reliable municipal recycling in my city, and no bottle deposit, so instead of throwing paper, cans and bottles into the common garbage, we just left it properly separated at the door and a homeless guy with a cart would pick it up weekly and get it recycled.

They were pretty much running a public utility service I'd otherwise have to pay for with taxes.

> If littering is equivalent to throwing money, you simply won't do it.

I have learnt that when organising events at work (sponsored by workplace), you have to charge people. Any amount like €5, its two cups of coffee but turn-up rate is in high 90% of people that paid upfront. Without charging any money its 50-60%

The number of people that sign up were pretty similar, so I hazard a guess that risk aversion was at play.

Its a powerful tool even if you know about it.

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

It becomes an alternative form of giving them your change, and you conveniently don't have to carry the bottle home. Although I've lived in a city where an old lady was known to roam the parks and was very pushy about wanting you to surrender your bottles.

Some years ago, New York passed a law on recycling. For some reason, people seemed to be surprised when it turned out that those showing up at the grocery store with carts full of recyclables were neither lawyers nor stock traders, but rather the homeless.

in California there are fewer dropoffs in stores but the bottles tend to come from residential recycling bins, which were raided while they were waiting for a truck to pick them up.

In my experience, that's common, but so is people jumping your fence to raid your cans before you've put them out. And, should you ever try to recoup the 'deposit' by going to the recycling center, you'll spend 1+ hour in line being hounded by homeless people to give them your cans.

All of it creates way more incentive to just throw your cans in the trash so you don't have to deal with any of that.

Bay Area here. My experience at recycling centers has always been quick and painless. Took over 60 lbs of cans and a bunch of scrap copper the other week. No line, no hounding.

My experiences in Monterey (2015) and San Diego (2019) were negative. It is good to hear that the particular issue either is not universal or has improved with time.

It's still a positive, at least if the recycling system works similar to in the EU.

Here, food containers have fairly strict limits on what recycled waste can be used to make them. Returned bottles and cans are clean enough to be made into new food packaging, but ordinary household recycling waste is not.

Not in Norway, not enough homeless people and far too few discarded bottles and cans.

I pick up the occasional beer can on the beach near where I live but they are almost always Polish and of course have no deposit.

> Weird side-effect: homeless people might ask for your empty bottle and do the collection. Not sure how I feel about that though…

That's kind of convenient actually IMO. I get rid of the bottle, I don't have to give them cash. Win-win.

I am not a rich man but the homeless guy needs the 50 cents more than I do. And I rather have homeless people collect cans than making street music to be honest...

I always assumed street musicians and homeless people were different people

While I don't see a connection between homeless people and street musicians, I am intrigued by your complaint of the street musicians?

My kids are fascinated by them, and as long as they are not taking up too much space to make it impossible to pass through the street (and if they do, I'll happily pass through their "stage"), I am quite happy to have the streets livened up by some music too. Not all of it is good or to my taste, but it certainly beats empty streets, especially so during cold winter months.

They block the shopping streets and their music is terrible. There are no empty streets in the Netherlands on a Saturday and there is nothing more depressing than a Eastern European on an accordion.

Isn't it the people that gather around them to listen that block the streets? That's usually my experience.

Btw, here in Serbia (what you'd probably call Eastern Europe :), accordions are pretty rare (I guess they all went to Netherlands :)) other than in gypsy bands (but they rarely play in the streets other than when following weddings around), but violins (usually students), keyboards and guitars (number one, duh) are most common, but you get to hear a trumpet or a flute too. We are just classy like that (or there might be a musical school or two nearby in the part of Belgrade I see them in ;).

Eastern European music schools , and particular those with folklore specialties, have had a long history of master classes. It is often that one can find street talent with proper education, just because music industry pays very little in Eastern Europe.

It seems to me that in Western Europe you find mostly dégénérâtes and hippies with no formal music education at all.

One can know the difference only if he has lived in Eastern Europe.

Perhaps the better Eastern European accordion players stay home. I used to visit Krakow often on business and really enjoyed listening to musicians playing in the main square. Also it wasn't just accordion players, there were all sorts, amateurs, music students, professional musicians playing a wide variety of instruments and styles.

It was worth having some cash to put in the bucket.

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