I'm French, I hope we (France, EU) follow your lead.
France weights exactly nothing in such politics.
Let's take an easier case: the hijacking of the Estonian plane over Belarus to imprison Roman Protasevich (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryanair_Flight_4978).
Everyone was outraged, Macron had his martial face to say that we will not tolerate this (I voted for Macron, to be clear). What happened? Exactly nothing. And this is against a clown regime backed by Russia who has vital interests in Europe. We dod not have the power to force Putin to do anything.
We are dependent on China like we are dependent on the US. Each of these countries will fuck us up the moment we get out of line (US did it many times already - the latest being the Australian submarines, but also our interests in Iran (the US said: either you move away from Iran or you will have problems. We asked the EU for help and eventually moved away as instructed)).
So our Napoleonian idea of a great country that everyone fears is just in th ehead of some people.
If we wanted to weight whatever, EU would need to be united. This is not happening with the current EU structure.
Good point.
I think Europe is the only continent that can oppose to colonialistic empires like US and China, but needs to have a single voice, France, Germany, Spain, Italy etc. alone are insignificant in the scenario.
We are eons from a country such as the USA, which highlights how federal it is. It is still one country, with one president, one army etc.
We (in the EU) are countries that love or hate other for over 1000 years. Some of the dislike is deep, some is surprisingly different now (France and Germany for instance, forever enemies and now counties that are really close to each other thanks to the post-war efforts).
But when it comes to money and politics, we are often each for its own.
Even I, in my middle 40s, consider myself European before being Italian.
And I am proud to be from Europe, more than I am proud of my country (which I am not for so many things).
do you think for most people its a "group of Europeans"
But it was a choice. Germany's politics appears to have been totally compromised at the highest level by Russia and China (Scholz seems to have been hand-picked by China, his positions on China couldn't be more worrying regardless of what he has said in the past month). France is moving in the same direction, although it is hard to separate this from the profound weakness of Macron.
There is no equivalence with the US either. The French position (and German) position on Iran makes no sense, it is the equivalent of: pretend the problem doesn't exist, and it won't exist (again, with policy being led by business interests). The interests of the US overlap totally with the EU, the US has been funding European defence for decades to the tune of tens of trillions but, of course, France and Germany will continue to nuzzle up to Iran, China, and Russia because they waved their chequebook in front of exporters in economically weak regions.
The only saving grace has been the EU which has effectively counterbalanced France and Germany in these areas (they stopped the investment deal with China). But, again, the policy positions of France and Germany are incomprehensible. It is not that France is insignificant but that their policy is totally at odds with the US and the EU. The reason they aren't opposing China is because there is a strong desire to support China.
We had contracts in Iran and had to break them because US warned of retaliation. We are weaker and had to back off.
The US obsession with Iran (driven by religious organizations), instead of staying with the US, was broadcasted to all countries which had to show their vassal position.
We did not like it, as you can imagine.
> The interests of the US overlap totally with the EU,
in Iran?
> the US has been funding European defence for decades to the tune of tens of trillions but, of course, France and Germany will continue to nuzzle up to Iran, China, and Russia because they waved their chequebook in front of exporters in economically weak regions.
Ah - here you are right. And the normal reaction of the US should have been "since you support our enemy, we are withdrawing from NATO and the money we pour into Europe". But then so many US military companies would loose contracts (less production) so this is obviously not the right thing to do.
The US is a bully, and proud to be one. We do not like to be bullied but are the small child in th eplayground so we suffer in silence, hoping that oone day we will be able to respond (a day that will not come)
EU itself is not really a bully, but most EU members are, and always were.
So Isn't it's a smart thing to do for EU to make other bullies to fight each other?
France was the first Western country to recognise the PRC, for instance. This was realpolitik and hopefully that will continue.
Before every action we need to ask yourself what we want to achieve and whether that is actually achievable. This requires knowledge of other countries' history, culture, and politics. Rash, emotional moves are rarely productive. Historically France and other Western powers have been aggressors towards China (which partly caused the reaction that led to the current Chinese regime). The reality is that a country like France is in no position to pressure China and rash action against China would help the Chinese government at home by allowing them to invoke history.
France has a choice in whether they choose to support the PRC or not - this requires stepping on red lines and facing the consequences.
France trades with China because it is in its interest to do so, not because of any 'support' for China.
https://mashable.com/article/china-censorship-companies-hong...
The concern is that the CCP will have a rash, emotional response (as they did with Lithuania) because they imagine they can set the terms for any Taiwan-related business.
These frequent emotional outbursts have cost the CCP so much political capital, which means countries like France will reconsider their relationship.
> but I was not specifically referring to that but rather to closing the embassy in China and other actions against China
Could you clarify what other actions did Lithuania take against China? This is the timeline afaik [0]:
- In August 2021, the ROC opened its representative office in Vilnius under the name of "Taiwanese"
- In response, the PRC recalled its ambassador in Vilnius, Shen Zhifei, and demanded that Lithuania recall its ambassador in Beijing, Diana Mickevičienė.
- On 3 December 2021, Lithuania reported that in an escalation of the diplomatic spat over relations with Taiwan, China had stopped all imports from the Baltic state. It said Beijing has delisted Lithuania as a country of origin, preventing items from clearing customs, and was rejecting all import applications
- As a result of the conflict China pressured Continental AG and other international companies to stop doing business with Lithuania.[7] The spat spilled over to the rest of the EU when China banned the import of goods which contained Lithuanian parts potentially disrupting integrated supply chains in the common market.
^ not included in the timeline: internal propaganda to smear Lithuania as a nation once the PRC deemed the tiny country a threat for allowing ROC to open a representative office under the name "Taiwanese" in its capital
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China%E2%80%93Lithuania_relati...
Looking at the comment history of the person you responded to, they post pro-China stuff a lot. This is probably not a conversation being had in good faith by two disinterested parties. You're responding to a member of the 50 cent army.
They're everywhere online now. Some subtle, some not so subtle. But whenever I see a pro-China poster who doesn't really give any evidence to back up what they're saying, and they just spew pro-China apologist rhetoric, I become very suspicious.
"Please don't post insinuations about astroturfing, shilling, brigading, foreign agents and the like. It degrades discussion and is usually mistaken. If you're worried about abuse, email hn@ycombinator.com and we'll look at the data."
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
If you want explanation as to why we have this rule, there is many years' worth at this link:
https://hn.algolia.com/?sort=byDate&dateRange=all&type=comme...
also:
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27398725
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26652363 (<-- Mini-FAQ)