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Comment by baybal2 | Hacker News Reader

I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication.

An average US college will tell you about VLSI, logic, teach you Cadence, and designing something on the level of 8051, and process engineering enough to work on something from 350-180nm era with aluminium interconnect.

The problem is this is hardly enough to make you employable. And without employment in few serious semi companies left standing today, you will never see modern chip manufacturing.

Semi industry has really high entry barriers, and it has really poor remuneration. The industry largely coasting on greying cadres from eighties-nineties in the West, and very cheap PhDs in Asia.

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> I'm afraid none in the West. Speaking, and writing Taiwanese Chinese is something really needed to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication.

You should take a look at http://opencircuitdesign.com/ You don't need "to get onto the cutting edge of device fabrication". You need to search for a VLSI design class.

A VLSI class, even from an average university will contribute very little to your employability. As I said, Big Semi barely if ever employs entry level professionals. And besides Big Semi, there is really very few companies left.

Even startups <$1m are full of seasoned professionals coming from abroad, seeking PhDs in US universities. I think it's more characteristic for semiconductor startups to hire much more senior engineers than the industry average to convince their investors, not the other way around.

Nah, sorry that is just not true.

Try this one for the US: https://sunypoly.edu/research/albany-nanotech-complex.html

Or this one for Europe: https://www.imec-int.com/en

Both world-leading semiconductor technology research institutes (coincidentally both got the first EUV-tools) with plenty of students.

I know IMEC as I was thinking going there at some point.

Both IMEC, and SUNY are heavily graduate research oriented. There are some undergrad opportunities there, but one's chances to get there are probably less than getting into MIT.

The "death valley" in between graduation, first employment, and a first real substantial job in semi industry is super-duper real, and acute problem. It's a problem in Asia, and 10x of than in US.

I don't know, just apply?

Obviously it is important to get hands on experience even as an undergrad. Ideally you can do that at your university, otherwise there are plenty of opportunities for internships. At least in Europe I had absolutely no problem finding one. It can't hurt to also look for second tier companies.

I largely quit trying to get into semi 10 years ago because I was was able to get better salary, and quicker just by pumping wordpress websites. And not like 10%-20% bigger, but few times as much.

My first full time job in line of "make us a WP website" was CAD $65k. An intern stipend at a semi lab was $16k cash a year, with a very competitive recruitment like "show us you was in top 10% of your group"

I mean, what do you mean by “chip manufacturing”? I’m sure there are plenty of people designing chips at Intel/AMD/Nvidia/Apple/etc. that are good at reading die shots, so the real question might be, what career path will get you to work closely with these people and learn from them.

Unless you actually mean working at a fab? Which strikes me as more process engineering than typical HN interests.

An average semi engineering course in US/Canada will teach you a bit of everything, including physical device manufacturing.

India is much more VLSI, and applied skills heavy (Cadence,) thus they dominate there.

None of US multinationals will hire a fresh "average" US semi engineering graduate. Maybe MIT + 1 more top schools, but otherwise fresh grads have no chances on the job market against already experienced people coming from Asia to do their PhDs in US.

Right! My point is that they will hire fresh software engineers/other disciplines, and then with some networking and being on an adjacent team, you get access to informal learning opportunities and internal transfer opportunities, so that over the longer arc of your career you can get into whatever field you want.

I did mean chip design in my question. I‘ll (partly) admit to being a helicopter parent, so I am just curious about various career paths for a kid who shows interest in electronics, and what one particular career path (i.e. chip design) entails these days.

I’m also very aware the epicentres of “top schools” will likely shift in the next 15-20 years, that kids’ interests and talents are labile, and that true self-determination is the key to a successful and happy life.

I am conflicted on this myself. Even most basic coding keeps being more profitable than EE.

I went to live, and make money in the mainland China for a few years. It was a hard bargain with the conscience.

I simply cannot fathom how the industry can be done in the West now, and the labour price has nothing to do with that for the reason it's higher in China for actual, non-software engineering.

Got it. Somewhat non-intuitively from the outside, hardware is far less glamorous and lucrative than software. If you really like hardware, then software that drives hardware is the place to be — you still get to play with and learn about the hardware, but you’re not in the mines, as it were. And — big one — your skills largely transfer.

At any rate, if it’s not common knowledge these days, get the kid a cheap second-hand bench-top oscilloscope. As long as the basic functions work, it doesn’t matter if it’s from the 1980s. But that thing is your eyes. And the knobs are fun.

Thanks for your take on this!

Your comment triggered warm memories of playing with my grandfather’s Soviet oscilloscope as a kid. It had knobs so clicky that you’d feel them your knuckles! :)

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