Libmobi: C library for handling eBook formats
github.com
github.com
It’s getting tired. This is the second time this morning that I’ve stumbled across that particular flame war.
I understand that security and memory safety are important and necessary arguments to have. Unfortunately, it’s a larger problem than which language you use. And, even if it were, it’s not like most (or any?) of the comments in this thread are even remotely correct.
On behalf of (hopefully) plenty of programmers, Let’s take a step back. Stop bugging me.
The abandonment of C as a viable language, and the replacement of C code, is a critical project for the software development community. It's not the only thing that needs to be done, but it's a great and necessary first step, just like abandoning internal combustion engines is for the climate, If you are writing new, production code in C, you are a fool. If you do not have a long-term plan in place to replace the C code you have that it isn't on some God-forsaken unreflashable ROM, you are irresponsible.
But I’m really, really tired of people comparing c interchangeably with c++ — and, more than anything else, if you have a good idea please just make a pull request on someone’s git repo.
And just in case anyone is unclear about this, if you ship code with unbounded memory leaks you’re going to hell
Instead we got VLAs (now deprecated) and _Generic. Neat but who cares? The C standards committee doesn't really know what to do with the language it seems.
There are definite pros and cons to that particular standards methodology. It is, without any question, the most distributable language. The ABI is and will likely always be intact.
Nobody has ever argued that C is anything other than that. It’s about as dead simple as it can be.
There are other languages for other purposes. Rust and C++ are, in all cases I’m aware of, equivalent in performance to their “ideal” C program alternatives.
Nobody has ever argued until just recently that C is or ever has been anything other than what it is or that there is some kind of battle going on between Rust and “c/c++.” Nothing could be more untrue. C and C++ are different things. Though, with a clear lack of understanding you can write a “c” program in c++. The same is true with rust — everything can still be mutable and you can still have undefined behavior very easily (perhaps most easily with IO).
Plenty of other languages exist, too, with other ways of solving these problems. Haskell is a wonderful language which I hope someday to develop with if there was only some way of making it easier to work with file systems without a PHD.
This particular flame war between rust, c, and c++ is so contrived and tired and misleading.
Rather than the purpose of C being an optimizable low-level language, it's more accurate to say that is the niche it carved out for itself.
There's plenty of crap in C that doesn't help with either optimization or a good ABI.
No, not really. C was always, right from the start, a kin to portable assembly. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a language from the 70s which was at the same level or lower than C. Neigher Fortran nor COBOL nor ALGOL nor Lisp nor BASIC were lower level than C. Precisely which language, other than assembly, leads you to believe that C ever was considered a high-level language?
I don't understand what leads anyone to argue otherwise.
C as a low-level language is revisionist history. Rust is a high-level language and yet it is a "lower level" language than Java. Same as C vs Pascal. You could write very low level code in Turbo Pascal back in the 80s, the demoscene used it a lot alongside assembly, it had inline assembly even.
EDIT: and to answer your question on what else was "low-level", Forth.
The only interpretation where this assertion rings remotely true is if you follow a definition of "high level language" which boils down to "it's not assembly", which has not been the case for around half a century.
It makes absolutely no sense to claim that languages such as COBOl and C are even close at the same level of abstraction, just because C is compiled, has loops, and has a standard library.
It was the interpretation back then which is what we're discussing :)
Honest question: why should C change? I mean, if all we want is access to higher-level core language features not provided by C, isn't it better to just pick up a higher-level language that already offers it? After all, if you add higher level features like smart pointers, is it really worth it to keep other features like the extensive reliance on the C preprocessor, dangerous string handling, and a spartan and in some cases outright unsafe standard library? Or would it be better to cut our losses and just adopt languages that already fixed those issues?
I just finished shipping an industrial lighting unit for “smart farms.” I worked extensively on embedded hardware. The most advanced processor I used was armv6, with the majority of hardware being IC or FPGA.
I used C for one thing only: reading the bitstream from microcontrollers into memory. After which point, I used c++ (17) with exclusively standard libraries (one exception: boost’s ASIO for http) to implement any and all other features.
I would have happily used c++ to read those bitstreams, but the code was so unsafe that it refused to compile. Turns out that reading raw bytes from an irregular file descriptor is so arcane and bizarre that no sane modern compiler felt good enough about itself to allow me to compile it.
All that said, I would only ever allow myself to write in C in that isolated case and for that isolated purpose. Every other nanosecond of my codebase runs on modern c++.
Honest answer, there is no legitimate reason to use C. If in some edge case you must, there is no legitimate reason to use it for anything other than that.
But look how many libraries are written in C, such that they can be made available everywhere. Look at how many are written in C++/Rust but with C wrappers with plenty of pointers and bad error handling.
Any improvements to the C standard would have meant a safer surface area for those languages to use to talk to other languages, since C is the english of programming.
There's no reason why C couldn't have namespacing, out-of-band errors, fat pointers, minimal reflection (typeof), standardized attributes, etc. ages ago. None of that would have screwed with the ABI or with optimization, but would have made language interoperability a lot easier.
No, not really. At least in practical terms.
C11 saw some changes, and arguably only minor ones.
C17 is a bugfix update to C11.
And C20 is still in the works, and none of the proposed changes are relevant.
Consequently, C as been dormant since the release of C99, which already was criticized for not bringing anything new to the table other than C++98 tuneups, and support for inline comments (?!)
C11 also had _Generic as a "major" addition (and a crappy one IMO). I agree that if C is not going to evolve in any meaningful way, they should probably just stop adding stuff to it entirely. Either go for a "C++11" or let it be frozen in place.
For the sake of the arguments made with regards to using Rust instead, they are exactly the same and comparable - both do not have memory safety, suffer from races and lots of undefined behavior. That was the whole argument. Sure, you can use only parts of C++ and use RAII to make much of that go away. But then again you can do the same in C. And nobody can enforce that everyone adheres to it.
If this let you at least ingest basically any eBook format, I'd be super interested. Unfortunately, it does not.
For example, literally the only (OSS) tool I've found that can parse .lrf files is calibre. There are zero other library tools that can let me extract the text content from them. MS's .lit files have similar issues, but at least there's no python libraries for it.
Outside of epub, there's a similar story for most other file formats too.
Ever tried Calibre?
>For example, literally the only (OSS) tool I've found that can parse .lrf files is calibre
Packages like okular, baloo, basket use it so it's semi-popular. Anyone has suggestions on what to do next?
https://www.loc.gov/preservation/digital/formats/fdd/fdd0004...
which leads one to
https://wiki.mobileread.com/wiki/MOBI
which seems pretty fleshed out
That being said, you do have a valid point that file format parsing really could benefit from a language with the safety features of Rust.
I've found that prior exposure to C is somewhat negatively correlated with willingness to grok Rust. Something in their mind rebels against it, which is why I say that if you're an "old hand" C programmer who feels that the syntax of Rust is too hard, or the borrow checker is obscure, maybe you shouldn't worry about learining Rust because Rust isn't for you -- it's for your replacement. You're John Henry, the borrow checker is the mechanical spike driver, and no matter how hard you work at it all your programming discipline is just no match.
rocket Crate up to 0.4.6 on Rust uri::Formatter use after free
If only people stopped with the cargo cult nonsense that leads to this absurd belief that adopting a tool is a silver bullet to fix their sloppy practices.
It is a real world CVE of use-after-free on real world Rust code in production.
This demonstrates that, unlike claims from fanboys, mindlessly migrating to Rust does not magically make your code safe and immune to vulnerabilities such as use-after-free, and just like with any other language you still need to know what you are doing.
Its just so completely uninformed and noob-ish to equate _tools_ to what people build with them. The language is not nearly as important as the programmer and the context in which the code was written. Its a very typical new-programmer thing to think language is all that matters, but most programmers with a few years experience understand how little it matters compared to everything else. You guys are basically like those old Christian missionaries who show up somewhere in Africa knowing nothing and insist the locals convert. Totally clueless..
https://doc.rust-lang.org/nomicon/lifetime-mismatch.html
i know the lifetimes are fine, but Rust doesn’t. in a memory unsafe language i would have to model the mutability in my head to ensure the code is fine. i now need to model the lifetime checker and its limitations/false positives _in addition to_ the underlying mutability to understand whether a compiler error is actually a bug in my code or not. and this is in an extremely short & simple program.
a compiler that can truly enforce safety without too many false positives is definitely a win. but for now it seems like a leaky abstraction so it adds complexity instead of reducing it.
https://docs.rust-embedded.org/book/interoperability/rust-wi...
I will probably get upwoted for Libmobi and other C/C++, because Rust is a bit of a waste of time.
Having said that, Rust is a C++ replacement not a C replacement. The biggest selling point of C is being the thing every other language talks and running everywhere including embedded devices with crappy custom compilers.
With both Rust and C++ you still need to write extern "C" wrappers which are suboptimal, even when partially automated, and neither runs everywhere.
The software industry has been dealing with the fallout of these issues for the past three decades. It's about time we moved the bar higher.
By the way, the main data structure of my first large Rust program was simply a vector of a custom struct, optimized for memory footprint. Just like in C, with the same low overhead serialization.
With C, you always have to be careful to not overrun a buffer. The recent NSS vulnerability is a great example of this:
https://googleprojectzero.blogspot.com/2021/12/this-shouldnt...
Even though this code was heavily fuzzed and tested, the problem slipped through. Not possible in Rust. Also, with Rust you can throw away all your sanitizer infrastructure and save all the associated costs.
It is not, they diverged since decades now.
Still, even if this was the case, the programming styles are so different that there’s nothing to gain considering them as any more similar as any two other languages.
AFAIK you always had to cast `void *` in C++ (like the return value of `malloc`).
My understanding is that most implementations of new call malloc under the hood (this may or may not be outdated at this point, I haven't kept up with C++ implementation) and both of these systems introduce a layer of record keeping, so if you're in an extremely memory constrained environment, you may want to use malloc directly.
If you want your code to be noexcept, you need to call malloc and handle the case where it returns null as new can throw (this is UB in theory, but in practice I'm pretty sure everything just aborts) to strip out all the stack-unwinding code.
If you want to avoid the constructor call (for whatever reason).
Idiomatic C code doesn't explicitly cast the return value of malloc
foo *bar = malloc(sizeof *bar);
foo *bar = (foo *)malloc(sizeof *bar);
That was the point of my original comment that C++ and C are not the same language :)