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Comment by lunaynx | Hacker News Reader

> So don't buy/install it. But don't take away that choice from other people.

It's not that simple. You are purposefully bringing up an extremely rare use case to detract from the fact that 99% of users of this software are going to be abusive parents who install it on their children's phones without consent. (Or heck, maybe even abusive spouses.) If parents are that concerned, even banning their children from "innocent" apps like Twitter or computer/phone use altogether is better than this invasive 1984-like software.

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Designing systems that don't empower abusers is so, so incredibly important.

Completely separately, though, it's also the case that OP is essentially building an Internet-connected backdoor into the system that will have been permitted to monitor cross-app activity. Even if data is E2E encrypted, that doesn't mean the software is immune from vulnerabilities that could then piggyback on the elevated permissions given to the app. And OP being a bootstrapped developer without the resources to have robust security practices is a liability here. Apple's response to treat this as a vulnerability is reasonable.

(As a side note, if OP wanted to distribute source code and unsigned binaries, macOS would allow an end user to run that software, and that's a perfectly reasonable caveat emptor for me. But Apple is under no obligation to digitally vouch for software that enables abusers and hackers.)

I mean, you can run any binary you want on MacOS if you disable Gatekeeper or go into the security settings and allow an exception for it. The developer doesn't need to be known or notarized by Apple. If you trust the source, go for it. If it's your wife or child's computer and you're installing spyware on it anyway, why worry?

> install it on their children's phones without consent

That's a curious phrasing. Are you implying a parent needs consent from their minor child to install something, anything they deem appropriate, on "their" phone?

I'm not the person you were replying to, but yes. That would be an extreme breach of trust and especially with the level of detail that's being collected here, effectively removing all privacy, it's just not ok. This could have disastrous consequences for ex. closeted LGBTQ+ youth with unsupportive parents who could kick them out of the house or worse if they found out.

Not to mention how socially alienating it would be to have this on your phone- who wants to text the person whose parents listen in to every conversation they have?

There's nothing immoral about it if the parent is up front with the child, the child knows the device is monitored. If they don't want to be monitored, then they don't get the device. I know for a fact once my kids are older not a packet will leave my house without getting snooped at least by a parent controls filter. I'm sure they'll find ways around it (as I did as a technical child) but kids need to be protected from devices and the internet just as much as they need to have access. There is a great deal of harmful and damaging content - social media being the least of it in many ways. If a kid feels they need to hide something as meaningful as issues about sexuality (which I do understand is common) from their parents, the issue is not the filters, it's the relationship, and the solution isn't to give the minor free reign to choose to use the internet unabated according to their own wisdom. Once they're an adult, fine. I guess there are just extremely different views on parental authority today.

The position being put forth here is frankly rather horrific and abusive, and on multiple levels. Normally I'd aim to provide a more substantive response, but I'm not even sure where to begin.

I find the idea of snooping horrific and yet strangely find myself agreeing with the parent, because it may be the lesser of two evils at this point. So much of what's online and what can happen to a kid online is even more horrific. FWIW, I don't have kids, so I'm not sure what I'd do. But I know I had my first sex chat on IRC when I was 12, in the dialup days, and it could have gone pretty badly if I hadn't been paranoid enough not to give out my phone number or address to the "14 year old girl" I was chatting with. Things are much, much, much worse now.

I would feel deeply uncomfortable if a parent (or anyone, really) were able to essentially listen in on every conversation I have. A tool that goes this far with monitoring really needs to be installed with consent from all parties.

This kind of software is not used by people in healthy relationships.

I'm not at all convinced this is an extremely rare use case. There are hundreds of thousands of Christian pastors, priests and ministers of religion who would probably find this very useful. There are a lot of Christians who would also find this useful, for themselves.

> You are purposefully bringing up an extremely rare use case to detract from the fact that 99% of users of this software are going to be abusive parents

What exactly is abusive about me wanting to know if my 6 year old is watching porn?

Are parents that signed up for Youtube Kids abusive, too? Is Google abusive for filtering the videos? And are all those who shared articles about how porn was showing up in YTKids abusive for letting parents know that their children might have been exposed to mature material?

OP clearly does not have children in 2021.

I think there's a big qualitative difference between having a Youtube Kids profile and filtering access to certain content versus completely negating a child's digital privacy like this. It actually reminds me of that one Black Mirror episode[1].

Ethically, I agree with the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child[2], which states in Article 16:

>No child shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his or her privacy [...].

>The child has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arkangel_(Black_Mirror)

[2] https://www.ohchr.org/en/professionalinterest/pages/crc.aspx

So, to be clear, the government can keep tabs on what my child watches. Google can keep track of exactly what my child watches. Twitter can filter based on its morals, what my child can see and share, as well as monitor everything they read and watch and say.

But I, as the parent that is actually responsible for the child (and may face lawsuits if I don't) am not allowed to do any of that.

Got it.

Governments and companies like Google/Twitter definitely have some shady tracking practices, sometimes even tracking between different apps and websites, but it's still nowhere near as invasive as taking a screenshot of every single thing that happens on your child's phone.

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