Personally I think that's a flawed assumption. While there are certainly cultural biases at play still, there are also aggregate differences between the genders that most likely means the "natural" gender ratio will still be skewed towards men.
This is unfortunately a taboo topic to make note of, and is absolutely not up for discussion in most workplaces (see the Damore scandal), and so the fetishism you note persists.
Part of the reason that I don’t think your paragraph 1 assumption is flawed is that there is evidence that men and women were equally interested in programming before the 80’s, but that a combination of cultural and societal factors came into play in that decade that branded computers as a “boy thing” and resulted in women being pressured out of the pipeline from a young age.
But even if you can find some sort of counterargument for that, my overriding reason why I stick with this assumption is as follows: decade after decade, people insisted that women weren’t into $career. And one by one, women have found their way into those careers (factory work in WWII, the executive suite more recently, plenty of other examples in between). In each case, the people saying women weren’t into $career had an argument that seemed to make sense, often relying on some combination of status quo statistics and hand-wavy conclusions drawn from psychology. And they were wrong. So when I see those same arguments brought out again for this career (often with some exhortation that “this time is different”) I generally dismiss them, as the epistemology they’re based on has a bad track record.
With all that being said, when it comes to actions, I’ll be more likely to encourage women to get into programming if I get a sense they might be interested in it. However, when it comes to interviewing candidates, I will not grade people on a curve based on their identity, as it is my belief that men and women can in fact be equally good at programming and should be held to the same standard.
The nature of "programming" as an activity also changed quite a bit.
You're right in that it's important not to automatically ascribe any demographic disparity to fundamental differences between the genders, but it's equally important to not automatically ascribe that difference to discrimination without considering those fundamental differences.
Given how slanted these stakes are and how many times society as a whole has underestimated women as a whole, I think the right answer here is to err on the side of trying to get women and other underrepresented minorities interested into tech.
[0] bear in mind what I said about the particular way I’m putting my belief into practice and that I do not believe in “reverse discrimination” to even the scales.
Anything more and it becomes the individual(s) behind the movement projecting their desires onto others and is no different that the societal molding that's taken place for the past several decades.
I don't think your premise is wrong, but I think it does explain why computer science is particularly focused on broadening participation, compared to other disciplines like nursing, teaching, etc. Computer science is current (for better or ill) a golden ticket to economic mobility.
I'm glad you don't discriminate (nothing "reverse" about it) against men, but many do, and since [your views are wrong](https://www.amazon.com/Essential-Difference-Female-Brains-Au...) it's tantamount to sex-based theft and redistribution.
Edit: grammar
The gender ratio isn't changing though. If anything it is becoming worse, it was decades ago that less women went into software engineering today.
The only thin that changed is that now every company tries to put their women software engineers front and center, in their marketing material, to go speak at conferences etc. So it looks like there are more women, but there aren't. Tech companies also tries to improve these statistics by bundling non programmers into this category, like product and project managers.
> 2008 Male: 72.33% Female: 27.67%
> 2013 Male: 73.44% Female: 26.56%
> 2018 Male: 73.82%. Female: 26.18%
The year by year numbers are too noisy to really mean much. 2018 being 0.3% percentage points higher than 2016 doesn't say much.
Anyway, the main point is that the gender ratio isn't really improving. At best you can say that it has stagnated, rather than getting worse as it did a decade ago.
Reference: https://jaxenter.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/women-in-com...
I'm in tech, I work on fixing tech.
> the intentional push for more of any specific demographic seems strange to me I believe the skewed demographics is a reflection of actions and pressures I don't agree with. I think there is pretty-open discrimination and steering of qualified candidates away from the field. (Read the news, sadly.) I'm morally against that. The demographics are an imperfect measure of our progress, but in my opinion it's a useful indicator.
> Shitty people are going to exist everywhere regardless Yeah, and in my workplace I'm against shitty behavior.
Without speaking to whether this is true or not, the parent's argument seems to me to be a kind of "whataboutism".
I don't choose to spend my time working to improve the work environment in other fields, not because I don't care but because I can't do everything.
Is this "pretty open discrimination"? It certainly doesn't make the cut for news. But yes it's very uncomfortable to be the only woman in that situation, people wok look at you for approval for their comments.
People being regular-shitty, combined with context, like making comments about the appearance and intelligence of the only other woman in the office, can create an inhospitable environment that forces women out. Companies that wish to hire and retain women should proactively create a hospitable environment or situations like above will occur.
The bigger thing is that it seems like you don't see return on investment into creating these better environments. Do you feel that diversity initiatives are wholly unnecessary or just poorly designed/targeted?
Regardless, my original stance was more aimed at the societal push of "get x demographic into tech". I'm not going to retype my thoughts on that - go read the other comments of mine in this comments section to get a clearer picture.
Implicit and explicit biases exist everywhere. My wife is in teaching, and would love to move into administration some day. The problem with that? Despite women being the dominant sex in the actual teaching position, men continue to fill administrative (i.e. principals, deans, etc.) roles at far higher rates than women. Why are men filling leadership positions more than women, when they have less experience and participation in the field overall?
I guess my rant/point is, each field will have their own unique battles with inequality and/or lack of participation from various demographics. We can't compare apples to oranges.
Some of these disparities can be traced back to social conditioning and discrimination, but its also in large part just due to inherit differences in the interest and abilities between genders. It's been proven time and time again that the genders are often fundamentally different in terms of abilities and innate interest. Neither gender is better than the other, but we are different and denying that does more harm than good.
How many of us started tinkering with programming at a young age out of pure curiosity or interest in how cool it is, without any regards for how viable of a career path it is later in life? It seems most of us who did just that were boys. At some point you have to consider that there's perhaps an innate aggregate imbalance in how interested each gender is in programming, or in how much each gender responds to financial incentives -- which would explaian both why countries that are more gender equal and more prosperous tend to have a greater degree of gender imbalance in STEM.
Hate to say it, but 0 female engineers _is_ evidence...
The assumption going in changes from "this is going to be ok" to "what is wrong with this workplace?"
(Of course this depends on team size, etc., but this is my own personal read going in.)
This was why I didn't get into STEM initially. It's not that I thought that engineering culture was toxic per se, but rather because the women I knew growing up didn't have careers, much less careers in technology.
Perspective is valuable, and like it or not various demographics have inherently different perspectives due to a variety of factors. We need conscious effort to include more demographics because our industry is dominated by a very small number of them and therefore its culture is heavily biased towards them.