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Comment by echelon_musk | Hacker News Reader

Thank you for posting this.

I received my 1st Pfizer vaccine in June and around 3 weeks after the vaccine I started experiencing frequent irregular heartbeats. Sometimes it was every day, then sometimes once or twice a week. I still experience ectopic heartbeat now (although much less frequently) as a result of the vaccine 6 months later.

I used to drink lots of coffee, but quit all caffeine in my life due to the risk to my heart! I reported this to the yellow card scheme, but I'm very glad to see more research being done and awareness.

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> I received my 1st Pfizer vaccine in June and around 3 weeks after the vaccine I started experiencing frequent irregular heartbeats. Sometimes it was every day, then sometimes once or twice a week. I still experience ectopic heartbeat now (although much less frequently) as a result of the vaccine 6 months later.

Way before Covid I had a panic attack which led me to believe that my heart was not working properly. I got everything checked and it was all good but in the following months I regularly noticed irregularities which have since subsided. I'm almost sure that this was not due to any actual change but the main reason was that I was simply observing my heartbeat much more closely, feeling my heart racing etc. which was in turn actually making my heartbeat more irregular.

Of course your problem might be more physiological but I just want to point out that mind and body are closely connected and it's very difficult to observe such an effect and pinpoint it to a certain event (for example the vaccination).

Plus, we humans are really bad at disentangling cause and effect in daily life. Everyday there's people that get sick or notice something, so if we all take a vaccin, by definition some will get sick or notice something right after the vaccin, albeit by accident.

That's not to say that's the case here, it's simply why, as the parent (and OP) also states (so I think we're all on the same page here, just adding another thought), research is important.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/health/post-pandemic-stress-...

It is just stress...

The study states that 0.004% of vaccine recipients were hospitalized from myocarditis. 1,615 out of 38,615,491.

NIH estimates that 31.1% of U.S. adults will experience an anxiety disorder at some point in their lives. https://www.nimh.nih.gov/health/statistics/any-anxiety-disor....

I would encourage you to discuss with a licensed medical professional about which you are more likely to be experiencing.

Does anxiety produce ectopic heartbeats?

Yes https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/heart-palpitations/

Not sure about irregular heart beats. But when I was burning out from my PhD a very heavy and intense heart beat was the most notable physical symptom. There was no underlying problem, I was just going through a great deal of emotional stress.

The problem with anxiety is that it leads to intense heart beating and your anxiety then leads you to assume something physically wrong with your heart. You don’t think rationally on stress!

Does myocarditis produce ectopic heartbeats?

You have the priors the other way round. The old adage "when you hear gallopping think horses, not zebras" is not valid if you're in a place where zebras are common and horses aren't.

What you say could be true if this person had experienced such events prior to vaccination as well.

Otherwise the probability of having a first episode of ectopic beats within 28 days of the vaccine is far less likely to be due to anxiety in the absense of previous history of anxiety, let alone one with rare symptomatology.

Except where there is so much disinformation from anti-vaxxers that it induces anxiety in people that are hesitant to get vaccinated

Vaccines causing myocarditis isn't disinformation.

Stating without context that "vaccines cause myocarditis" is indeed disinformation, because it encourages people to irrationally focus on a particular (edge-case) negative outcome, whilst disregarding the (common) positive outcome.

Add the context, and the potential for disinformation goes away: "Vaccines cause myocarditis, but overall at a lower rate than the disease itself. Additionally, the disease has many other, much more significant, risks that are mitigated by vaccination."

The point I'm making is that disinformation is a psychological effect. A statement can be factually true and still be disinformation ("100% of child abusers found to have consumed dihydrogen monoxide", etc.)

Can't tell if sarcastic...

Anxiety is exacerbated during times of stress. Covid is placing unprecedented stress on all of us right now. Getting a vaccine and then hearing it "may cause myocarditis" can be very stressful, and we lose the ability to internalize the caveat that it's attached to a 0.004% incidence rate.

Anxiety also causes you to perceive normal bodily sensations, that you otherwise filtered out, with heightened sensitivity.

"With health anxiety there is the misinterpretation of discomfort and normal bodily sensations as dangerous. The body is very noisy. Healthy human bodies produce all sorts of physical symptoms that might be uncomfortable, unexpected, and unwanted, but not dangerous." https://adaa.org/learn-from-us/from-the-experts/blog-posts/c...

Also worth remembering that in many locations people will get a survey about side effects after vaccination. That means they be asked "did you experience any heart issues" which is not something they think about every day. If they really think about it, maybe they did that week. And it may or may not be something they experienced before.

You're riding a horse through the zoo, but still thinking it's likely zebras even though you're in the snake house.

I had an EKG done like a month ago for this reason. Turns out irregular heartbeats are a very normal thing in the amount I was experiencing them. In addition, I spent a lot of time indoors, sitting or lying on a couch, stressing about my health and the world, thus overreacting to normal changes in heart rhythm due to the sympathetic and parasympathetic system handing off to each other.

I've been fully vaccinated since August.

edit: Spelling, wording

I'm not sure if it's the same thing but a few weeks after my 2nd shot of Moderna I feel like my chest (heart? lungs?) squeezes for a few seconds and then I have problems breathing normally for a few hours after that. This repeats almost every day. I had my heart and lungs checked but found no obvious problems. I don't know what to do or what additional tests necessary but hope this goes away :(

Please interpret my comment in a benevolent way: Have you considered that you perhaps experience panic attacks? It is pretty common especially for males to experience panic attacks as primarily physical. Can you perhaps find a pattern in your behaviour or experiences before you have those squeezes (i.e. some part of your work routine, or specific thought patterns)? Whether physical or psychological, it might be worthwhile to write some kind of symptom diary after each event.

Thanks for your comment, I haven't looked at it this way. It happens randomly also often when I'm in an inactive and relaxed state. But I'll pay closer attention to external circumstances.

> I feel like my chest (heart? lungs?) squeezes for a few seconds

Do you feel pain when this happens?

> then I have problems breathing normally

Does your breathing rate increase? (hyperventilation)

Next time this happens you can undertake a small test. Take 15 g of sugar in one go and see whether you experience an immediate improvement. This test will show whether the condition is related to decreased ATP production which is known to cause panic attacks in some people (false hypoglycemia). If you see an improvement from sugar then it means it is related (you can take a look at my other posts to see how to manage that).

Other tests that may be helpful for you: HOMA-IR, A1c, Low-Density Lipoprotein (LDL), High-Density Lipoprotein (HDL), Cholesterol, Triglycerides, Gamma-glutamyl Transferase (GGT).

Thanks for your comment! I'll do the sugar test and check if there are some blood tests from your list I haven't done yet.

> Do you feel pain when this happens?

No, just weird unpleasant "squeeze" sensation in chest.

> Does your breathing rate increase? (hyperventilation)

Not sure but probably not. It makes me breath way deeper, but frequency seems the same.

> just weird unpleasant "squeeze" sensation in chest.

If the hypothesis of a non-satisfactory ATP production applies to you, then this is the moment of energy production decompensation. It causes the feeling of a sudden and unexplainable "halt" in consciousness/breathing/muscle activity, after that you become very alert and subconsciously start racing the heart/lungs, feeling that you are not ok. Some people even feel that they may pretty much die.

But the exact manifestation varies from person to person. An example of a real-world situation is presented in [1].

> It makes me breath way deeper, but frequency seems the same.

This also counts as hyperventilation. It's either frequency increase, deepness increase, or both.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29139740

P.S. I will monitor this thread from time to time in the following months. Just drop a reply if I can be of further help.

Thank you so much again. Not sure if it's my case (I'll check with sugar) but analysis of this level is way above any doctor I ever visited. One minor note though, I find these attacks happening even when inactive and relaxed, not only under heavy physical/mental activity or stress.

> I find these attacks happening even when inactive and relaxed

In the initial stages, attacks do occur mainly under the mental/physical load. The condition slowly but steadily progresses to everyday attacks over several weeks/months.

In the later stages, attacks may even occur during the night when a person sleeps or tries to sleep. A person may have several attacks during the day at this point.

You could ask your doctor about a D-Dimer test, https://medlineplus.gov/lab-tests/d-dimer-test/ . In the US, it costs about $200 without insurance and can be ordered directly by the patient.

This story describes one diagnostic process for vax-induced myocarditis, https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2021/05/what-its-like-to-hav...

Thank you, this is so helpful, I'll definitely order this test.

I didn't see a dimer mentioned in that article, and on a brief glance its not in any of the algorithms I saw for diagnosing myocarditis.

Perhaps walterbell suspects your symptoms are related to blood clots and that is why he recommended a dimer. D-dimer is often used as a screening test when there is relatively low suspicion for pulmonary embolism. I can't say either way, but if you're most concerned about myocarditis a dimer would probably only muddy the waters imo. With your symptoms and a positive dimer you might end up getting a chest CT (you say you've already had some workup done, not sure if that was included).

Your best bet is probably to find another doctor or pursue further workup with your current doctor as there are a lot of nuances not easily captured through an internet discussion board. For all we know you may have asthma.

Thanks for your response. I did echo, lung CT, cardiac stress test but neither of these shown any anomalies. One doctor suggested angiocardiography "just in case" but it requires taking pills for a few days to lower heart rate. I'm still not sure lowering my heart rate with meds is a good idea.

If you did a lung CT they probably looked for blood clots (your doctor would know if they did or not), in which case dimer is not going to help you.

Ironically, if you are having panic attacks, a drug that lowers your heart rate may help treat them.

Right. I visited a pulmonologist a couple of days ago and she said clots doesn't seem to be my case. And yes, asthma is her main hypotheses now. Which seems strange given I'm in my late 40s.

Thanks for the follow up!

PVCs and other irregular rhythms are quite common and related to stress and a lot of other things. They’re also highly disconcerting. But anyway, it’s always tempting to find a cause or one something to blame, very human to do but easy to scapegoat the wrong thing. Not saying you’re wrong but Be careful about attributing causation without solid evidence, which is often hard to come by.

Yeah, I think I’m experiencing the same thing :/… I just hope it goes away

I also experienced an irregular heartbeat for several months after receiving the Moderna vaccine (June, 2021) up to this month (December, 2021). It seems to be getting better, but is accompanied by a mild pain, tightness in the chest and shallow breath. This is despite regular diet, exercise and otherwise normal health. I am 31 years old.

The damage to your heart is too mild to be considered worthy of study.

Asymptomaptic covid-19 is more worthy of study and effort to prevent it.

Heart problems did increase in young people in a significant way. To my knowledge this trend began before Covid though.

> as a result of the vaccine

Can you really know that?

Same, I first went to my doctor about this 6 months ago now and only just now have they acknowledged it might be myopericarditis. Anxiety has been discussed but it is unlikely as it gets worse with exercise.

I’m still waiting on an echocardiogram after 5 months.

Same here. I couldn't go for runs for 4-5 weeks after the first dose. I also had COVID prior and was back on my feet after 3 days. I'm fine now but worried about getting boosted.

> I still experience ectopic heartbeat now (although much less frequently) as a result of the vaccine 6 months later.

Are you confident that this is related to getting vaccinated?

I also got irregular heartbeats a couple of years ago (long before I got vaccinated against Covid), mine are called premature heart beats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Premature_heart_beat) and they're harmless as long as they stay under a certain of times per minute, according to my cardiologist (after extensive tests).

I hope someone else appreciates the ridiculousness of quitting caffeine for health, but gladly accepting an unapproved experimental drug into their body.

I think now, almost everybody knows someone with your problem. Really sorry to heard, I hope you will recover!

No vaccine should damaged an healthy person, and nobody should be forced to a treatment (Norimberga anyone?). We need more studies and data like this.

Why governments don't push for studies? I remember doctors and media denying AstraZeneca Blood cloths for months, before they added to the official adverse reaction list, finally.

> Why governments don't push for studies?

Where do you get that idea? I mean, you literally are commenting on a study run by people involved in a government decision-making process.

I think now, almost everybody knows someone with your problem.

This seems unlikely, given the relative rarity of these events.

No vaccine should damaged an healthy person

Every vaccine ever created can have adverse effects on healthy people.

Why governments don't push for studies

You are literally commenting on a study.

I remember doctors and media denying AstraZeneca Blood cloths for months

Your memory is wrong.

>> I remember doctors and media denying AstraZeneca Blood cloths for months

> Your memory is wrong.

There are "fact-checks" still online claiming that AZ doesn't cause blood clots.

https://eu.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/03/25/fact...

The early "fact-check" you linked to doesn't claim "that AZ doesn't cause blood clots". Its conclusion:

"Whether there is an actual connection is still under investigation and will be closely monitored as vaccination with AstraZeneca's vaccine resumes."

You linked to an article that literally concludes with the sentence:

"Whether there is an actual connection is still under investigation and will be closely monitored as vaccination with AstraZeneca's vaccine resumes."

This is exactly what we should all expect to happen. I don't doubt for a second that there will be citable examples of doctors or media claiming that this particular vaccine did not—or was unlikely to—cause clots. But the statement "I remember doctors and media denying AstraZeneca Blood cloths for months" is clearly intended to misrepresent the actual situation.

> Your memory is wrong.

I don't think so, you can still find the traces of it everywhere.

You can't deny the fact that the people in charge decided to misinform the public several times for specific reasons. It started with masks: people wanted to wear them and all the media was parroting that "there is no evidence that masks protect against COVID-19" (or was it called the "Wuhan virus" still back then?). While technically correct, it was against common sense and the aim was to limit the demand for masks used by healthcare institutions. Once they secured the masks, they turned 180 degrees and started to force everyone to wear the masks. What a great way to build credibility.

Regarding vaccines, more openness would be great. What we were promised was efficiency at the level of >90%. What we see now, after mutations and with time after taking the vaccine, the efficiency levels are much lower and it looks like - at least in some countries - people will have to take the vaccine perpetually 2 or maybe even 3 times a year in order to be able to work. In this case, we better study the possible adverse reactions well and assess the overall lifetime risk, especially for younger persons.

> I remember doctors and media denying AstraZeneca Blood cloths for months, before they added to the official adverse reaction list, finally.

29.1.2021: EU approval for the vaccine is granted

~10.3.2021: first countries pause usage, EMA officially starts investigating.

18.3.2021: risk of blood clots is added to list of known potential side effects

so not even 2 months.

EDIT: and to pre-empt hair-splitting which list counts:

7.4.2021: moved from "potential side effect" to "known side effect". ~ 2 months and a week.

"This project involves data derived from patient-level information collected by the National Health Service (NHS), as part of the care and support of cancer patients. The SARS-Cov-2 test data are collated, maintained and quality assured by Public Health England (PHE). "

"BRC. M.S.-H. is supported by the National Institute for Health Research Clinician Scientist Award (NIHR-CS-2016-16-011). J.H.-C. and K.M.C. are supported by the NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research Centre. N.L.M. and K.M.C. are supported by the British Heart Foundation (Chair Awards CH/F/21/90010, CH/16/1/32013), Programme Grant (RG/20/10/34966) and Research Excellence Awards (RE/18/5/34216, RE18/3/34214). A.S. is supported by the Health Data Research United Kingdom BREATHE Hub. This research is part of the Data and Connectivity National Core Study, led by Health Data Research United Kingdom in partnership with the office of National Statistics and funded by United Kingdom Research and Innovation (grant MC_PC_20029)"

In what universe isn't this the government pushing for the study?

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